73_FutureNowShow_Katrina.txt

- Say kids, what time is that?
 (bell dings)
 (saxophone music)
 ♪ The future is comin' on ♪
 ♪ It's comin' on ♪
 ♪ It's comin' on ♪
 ♪ It's comin' on ♪
 - Okay, yeah, we're coming on from downtown Santa Cruz,
 with a new studio for Santa Cruz Voice.
 - Woo hoo!
 - Yes. - Woo hoo!
 - Hey. - Hey.
 - We're gonna-- - Flying blind,
 but it is so far, it looks like it's working out.
 We're in town today because you were down here
 for a friend's court hearing.
 - Yes, absolutely.
 - And once you, it's an interesting case, right?
 - It's very interesting to me.
 - It could have national implications.
 - I like to think so, and perhaps so.
 We have a dear friend, Monica McGuire,
 and a lot of people in our community know her,
 and she is a national, a sovereign,
 a person who is claiming to be a national American woman,
 who is under the jurisdiction of the Constitution,
 and is following all the laws of the Constitution.
 And then, here, residing in California,
 there's, I guess, different jurisdictions,
 and she is doing her best to always invoke
 her constitutional rights as the first order of business,
 when any law is enforced.
 And so, she has been in the habit over the last two years
 of pulling over peace officers,
 just to get acquainted with them,
 and just to let them know that, since she is a sovereign,
 the jurisdiction that she is in,
 is that unless there's an emergency,
 the California Highway Patrol does not need to see her papers.
 - So this is the whole thing where you are a sovereign,
 not a citizen.
 - Yes, we are. - So,
 - a sovereign, not a citizen.
 - Yes, and of course, our Constitution was created
 for the purpose of separating the people of the land
 of America from the citizens of the British Empire, right?
 That's what we won in the Declaration of Independence
 and the original American Revolution.
 And it makes all of us sovereigns without subjects,
 i.e. the experiment in self-rule.
 That is what is so special about our country.
 And so, Monica is doing her best to go through
 the somersaults required to maintain allegiance
 and alignment with the constitutional rule of law
 as a woman on the land.
 And so she is in traffic court today, basically,
 because she had just gotten a particular ownership document
 of her car that stated that she didn't need
 to display license plates because she has a special one.
 And even if she didn't have her special one,
 she would be able to explain that there's a difference
 between people who are traveling, which is a constitutional
 right for all Americans on the land,
 and driving as it pertains to the law,
 which means someone who is paid to drive.
 And people who are paid to drive have to observe
 the commercial codes, which force them to register their car,
 pay licensing fees, hold insurance,
 all the things that the police officers typically ask people
 to give them are under the license for drivers.
 And her constitutional rights, she's arguing,
 are derived from the fact that she is a traveler, not a driver.
 And so she's in court.
 The judge is a very friendly man who's giving her a lot of time
 to make her case.
 I think he really likes educating the people
 about how our system works.
 And he's very proud of our system.
 That's the judge.
 Yeah, the judge, Gary.
 He is giving her lots of help, since she's not an attorney,
 about how to proceed in the court according to the laws.
 And she's busy making the case the whole time
 that she's in the wrong court.
 She has been charged with three criminal charges.
 The first and most significant one of them
 is resisting arrest.
 There is nothing that she was arrested for.
 So then the second and third charges are misdemeanors.
 And one of them is not showing her driver's license
 to the officer.
 And the third is not displaying her license on the car.
 And so the whole conversation is really
 about why she's in court defending
 her constitutional right to privacy
 when her supposed crime was telling an officer
 that she wasn't subject to their jurisdiction.
 And then the officer basically escalating
 that to a reason to detain her and to drag her out of the car
 and throw her on the ground and then arrest her
 for resisting arrest, basically.
 So if you want a very interesting case
 that you will not see much of the time,
 you have a sovereign who is defending her constitutional right
 to privacy in the face of a CHP officer who believes
 that it's the law for everyone who is a driver to hand over
 their driver's license and display their car license.
 And so--
 Yeah, by scene, boy.
 Yeah.
 Yeah, it is quite a scene that someone defending
 their right to privacy had it escalated into a reason
 to throw them on the ground.
 Just by resisting the order because of claiming
 that it wasn't a lawful order and that she wanted to explain
 and the officer didn't want to listen.
 And it's one of those things like,
 where do we draw the line in our right to privacy?
 And courtroom two, 701 Ocean Street,
 a very interesting trial happening this afternoon,
 we have our defendant defending herself not being a lawyer,
 not knowing how to follow the rules that lawyers follow.
 Theoretically, we should have Bobby on now.
 Oh, well.
 Yeah, try talking, Bob.
 There he is.
 There we go.
 Yeah, I hear you fine.
 I'll get clear.
 All right.
 I'm clear.
 I'm glad to hear it.
 Push all the right buttons here.
 Yeah.
 I see you, buddy.
 OK.
 Yeah, so on the second hour today,
 we have a very interesting guest.
 We have a dear friend of ours, Katrina Valencourt,
 who is a trained nonviolent communication expert
 and a person who was also a therapist
 and very prolific in her ability to speak well.
 And to navigate very difficult emotions
 in a very constructive way.
 Yes.
 And she wrote a book about how she
 found on what she calls the QAnon rabbit hole,
 and that she has emerged from it to tell the tale.
 Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting.
 It seemed like the show before us, Gary,
 was just talking about Q and how they're still busy
 telling people this and that and the other thing
 and how they contradict themselves.
 And of course, I want to just add
 that I saw the anti-social network that
 did a deconstruction of QAnon and the origins of it
 with a group called For Channel, which
 was in the early days of the internet, just kind of a spoof
 channel where a lot of people were doing things like flash mobs
 and taking advantage of the anonymity of the internet
 to be different than they might be in real life.
 And they formed some very close friendships
 as characters on For Channel who then developed this idea
 that they were supposed to do civic action.
 Yeah, it all connects in with anonymous
 and the whole anonymous phenomenon.
 Yeah, it is.
 We'll get more into that in the second hour.
 Yeah, but just a little shout out to the anti-social network,
 not the same as the social network.
 That was a Netflix sponsored documentary.
 I just also want to point out to you, Al,
 that we could let people know where we are down here
 in the satellite co-working facility here in Santa Cruz.
 Right downtown.
 Yeah, right downtown.
 And I know we have something that we could let people know
 about them.
 We love this place.
 It's absolutely wonderful.
 And what we know about for us, this is where future now,
 our show is streaming live.
 And it's where Santa Cruz has set up their new digs
 and where CTV satellite, Digital Media Studio
 and Santa Cruz all live.
 So that is right here in the satellite workspace
 on the corner of Ocean and--
 It's OK.
 Yeah, we're in a so-called land.
 Yeah, so--
 Where would you like to go during our waters here?
 Well, I think in this hour, first of all,
 I'd like to say that we had an incredible Fourth of July.
 We sure did.
 So it was one event after another.
 Yes.
 It was just not-- and we even saw some great fireworks
 in San Francisco.
 Yes, thanks to our old friends who
 Santa Cruz voiced people know very well.
 Yes, we were invited to see their new place.
 And Z and Amy.
 And see the fireworks, which was the first time.
 And they hosted the best Fourth of July party I've ever been to.
 So plus that's the first party.
 And they say something.
 You've been to thousands of parties.
 I go to one almost every year.
 It's the best Fourth of July party I've ever been to.
 Usually, we just go park somewhere and watch fireworks,
 right?
 Maybe a tailgate party.
 Yeah, I think what was interesting about it
 was that it was mostly friends through Amy
 and mostly Chinese people.
 Amy's--
 And having a Chinese New Year--
 Incredible community.
 --on July 4 was pretty interesting.
 It was beautiful.
 Because we had some of the most amazing, accomplished 70-plus
 people from China--
 A few years old, not 70--
 --who were all--
 yes, 70 years or more.
 One of her friends is a ballet dancer who is 77.
 And he lifts his leg up over his head, like a teenager,
 way more than I can.
 And I know, I'm old too.
 But it's very impressive how accomplished this gentleman was.
 They also had a member of formerly the Hong Kong Symphony.
 And now the San Francisco Symphony,
 who was an awesome violinist, who
 was playing incredibly wonderful, challenging violin.
 Beautiful.
 And dancing violin, the karaoke.
 Do I do say?
 Of course it was karaoke.
 I never do karaoke personally.
 I never do either.
 But I was so moved by the talent in the room
 that I jumped in there just to try,
 because I'm terrible at karaoke.
 But I sang a song from Camelot, because I really
 felt like we were in one of those magical places where things
 just worked a little differently.
 But what made it such a special 4th of July party
 is because all of these accomplished people
 were first generation Americans who
 had naturalized here from China after having a very challenging
 time in China.
 And they were so in love with the American dream.
 And they were so appreciative of their blessing
 of being American.
 It was so inspiring to me.
 I mean, I was crying, and some of these people
 were playing their traditional Chinese instruments.
 The first generation is the most appreciation.
 They're less cynical than the third and fourth generation,
 like most of us.
 Yeah, yeah.
 But there is something special about the land
 here in this country where we crave freedom.
 We cannot prosper without a belief in our natural rights
 and our freedom.
 There's this sort of creep that happens
 where people start making up rules and acting parental
 and trying to control others and stop respecting
 their natural rights.
 And they act more wimpy instead of strong.
 But the America that I grew up in
 is an America of people who are equally strong, not equally
 wimpy.
 We also, for the first time, visited
 Bobby and Katya in their place.
 Twice from this weekend.
 In San Francisco, right?
 I like the--
 It was so wonderful to have you both.
 Yeah.
 I'm so glad you guys got the seats placed all these years.
 We've never been here before.
 I know.
 And I can't believe it.
 We had so much fun.
 I loved the Larson Hill and the Golden Gate Point Park on top.
 And oh, it was just awesome.
 It was quite a respite from the high temperatures
 of Boulder Creek, where it's been 100 degrees plus for many days.
 And to be in 60 degree weather was like serious bliss.
 Yeah.
 We have a natural air conditioning here in San Francisco
 for the summer.
 Yeah, for the summer.
 How often is it that cool?
 Do you ever get a summer where it's like in the '80s or '90s?
 It usually happens.
 It goes into the '80s and '90s and even to the 100s,
 usually in October, maybe for about a week.
 About a weekend.
 If you're lucky.
 Yeah, that's it.
 It's a rare one.
 And a treat to have one in San Francisco.
 And I did tell you that the days leading up
 to the Fourth of July, they're beautiful days and there's no fog.
 And then it gets warm.
 And then I'm telling you, on the Fourth of July, invariably,
 the fog will come in on the Fourth of July.
 Yes.
 Yeah.
 It's kind of funny.
 We're listening to our buddies on No Agenda, John de Vorack,
 and Adam Curry.
 And they were saying there weren't any fireworks in San Francisco.
 And they were wrong because we were there.
 We saw them and we enjoyed them.
 And this year, it happened.
 That was interesting because the fog was coming in, as you say,
 but that fireworks were half above the fog and half below it.
 So it created this very strange multi-dimensional firework
 experience that was quite enjoyable to watch.
 You're one of the very few lucky people in San Francisco
 to actually see the fireworks.
 I know.
 It's really funny.
 We like to listen to No Agenda.
 And we listen incredulously as John de Vorack claimed
 that once again, there was only fog.
 And nobody did fireworks in San Francisco.
 That's because he's on the East Bay side,
 where they probably didn't see anything.
 Yeah, they didn't see anything over where he was.
 But of course, around the Fisherman's Wharf,
 Gia Deli Square, there were two boats out in the bay,
 as there have been many years.
 And they were doing a mirror show of fireworks.
 And it was very wonderful.
 Yeah, we had fireworks in stereo.
 Two major installations going off at the same time,
 with the same effects, I might add.
 Yeah.
 And so just to amplify, the American dream is alive and well.
 And there are people who are so grateful to be here,
 because they know from once they came
 that not every place is like here.
 If you try hard, you can make it work for you here.
 Oh, and the other big event that we went to is after we left
 you at your place for lunch on Sunday.
 Bobby was the memorial for Yasos.
 Yasos, a very well-known musician.
 New Age father of New Age music, according to Alan Watts.
 Yes.
 With Steve Halpern, his buddy.
 Who created the term New Age, because you always wonder.
 One fact.
 Funny thing is, is that Yasos and I, we kind of knew each other,
 but I wouldn't say we were friends.
 We were kind of--
 I was friends with Yasos.
 You were friends, yeah.
 He was like--
 He was like to play flight simulator.
 Yeah, that played life simulator.
 Anyway, we had a lot of friends in common.
 That's the main reason why to go to these things,
 is that the memorials are so many people
 that you haven't seen for years and years.
 And this was no exception.
 Yes.
 It was such a beautiful gathering of people that we love
 and people from our ancient past.
 Yasos was a person who spent a lot of time at the goddess
 temple.
 He was much beloved by Christopher Hills,
 the fellow who brought spirulina to the world.
 And Christopher Hills was channeled
 by one of the other ladies that was there?
 Yes.
 Yes, there was a woman there named Gwen who channeled Christopher
 Hills and said he was present in the room
 and would never miss this gathering to honor Yasos.
 Christopher Hills was a real character.
 He looked like a Merlin type person, the big beard, and the hair.
 And he lived in Boulder Creek.
 He decided-- he was British.
 And he decided that Boulder Creek was
 where he was going to build the University of the Trees
 and later became the goddess temple with Penny Slinger.
 It has always been a center, a hub of activity
 for generations.
 Yeah.
 And he had founded the company called Light Force that
 was then absorbed by royal body care after that.
 But he loved Yasos.
 And according to Gwen, who was channeling Christopher,
 he wanted everyone to know that in 1971,
 Christopher had asked Yasos what planet he was from.
 And Yasos had answered Sirius A.
 That's supposed to be Sirius B, which was supposedly
 the Egyptians.
 Yeah, so he published his first New Age music, May 17, 1975,
 Interdimensional Music.
 And that was even before Steve Halpern's July 24th release
 of Spectrum.
 Spectrum Suite.
 Spectrum Suite.
 Very famous album.
 Yeah.
 Steve Halpern was there.
 Yeah, Steve did part of the storytelling at the memorial.
 Right.
 He talked about the origins of New Age music,
 how it came about.
 It's quite fascinating.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 I have a cute little thing of the story
 that was told by one of the documentaries there
 who had interviewed Yasos and had gotten
 Yasos to tell this beautiful story where
 Yasos was talking about the fact that if a day, instead
 of being 24 hours, was 24,000 years,
 then after darkness, maybe after about 12,000 years,
 people might have forgotten that there was light.
 But there would be those people who
 were the first to notice that dawn was coming.
 And they would be all excited.
 The light is coming.
 The light is coming.
 And that is the people who are on the Earth.
 That's who Yasos identified with.
 He is the early dawn seeking human who knows the light is
 coming and his art is dedicated to that.
 His beautiful music and his amazing videos.
 If you go to yasos.iosos.com, he's got a beautiful website
 with a lot of his art and music available.
 IASOS.
 We also run it to David.
 David is one of the characters that if you've ever
 been to a new living expo, is the old doctor that has always
 seen Alcatraz as a healing center.
 And it's been his big vision to transform that island
 into something that we would enjoy being at.
 Yeah.
 It's time for us to do our little bottom of the hour break.
 Yeah.
 You find the commercials?
 I did.
 Thank you, Bill.
 I got it.
 I got my finger on the green button.
 As soon as you say go, I'm going to just go.
 Because I don't have any music to go to.
 Oh, well, let me help you out here.
 Here, yeah.
 You got some music?
 Yeah, let's try this one.
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 (chimes)
 And we're back.
 One of the fun stories here for this week,
 the Mars people that friendly came out of their--
 Oh, now which Mars people are we talking about, Al?
 Well, you didn't know we had a bunch of marshes
 that were, that were, that's not the next story.
 (laughing)
 It's more like they were humans
 but they were placed in isolation.
 All right, so we're talking about the NASA Mars
 simulation in Houston.
 That's right, that's right.
 You got the ticket here.
 Well, you know, we've been covering Stephen Greer,
 Alien, Disclosure Movement.
 So I thought maybe there was some new marshes
 that we hadn't met yet.
 But no, you're saying these are humans
 that wanna become marshes.
 And so they're practicing in Texas.
 Yeah, yeah, they're practicing.
 They seem to be happy.
 They came out after over a year.
 They focused on establishing conditions of Mars on Earth
 as much as possible with the simulated spacewalks.
 They called them Mars walks naturally.
 Naturally.
 And they were trying to grow vegetables there
 because it's kind of a dicey environment
 for growing anything.
 But they were working with what they could do
 with harvesting vegetables from Martian soil,
 what they think is Martian soil
 and keeping oxygen flowing in their little facility
 and probably trying to figure out how to also create oxygen
 as well.
 One of the big issues is going to be breathing there
 with not having a decent atmosphere.
 So they're planning more missions.
 I was successful enough that they're able to deal with this.
 One of the things you keep in mind
 is that they wanna talk to Earth that takes 22 minutes
 to get a message there and back.
 Oh.
 Yeah.
 Wauky-Tocky style, over and out.
 11 minutes each way.
 You send a message to go take a break
 and come back and you get an answer.
 So yeah, that's one of the things they had to simulate
 as well but 22 minute delay on all their communications.
 Their biggest test was to see if people could handle
 over a year of isolation from their families and friends
 and whether or not they would be able
 to eat a prescribed meal plan.
 Did they start this after COVID or during?
 They started 380 days ago.
 Oh, so after.
 So, okay.
 Well, I guess that crew kind of knew what to expect then.
 Oh, yeah.
 I guess so.
 I guess they're kind of, they were quite happy to do this
 and happy to get out.
 I bet they were.
 Yeah.
 Why did they go in?
 How big was the spaceship?
 How big, what was the simulation in?
 Was it in a dome?
 Was it in a...
 No, it was in a special little 3D created
 with several little rooms,
 a three little printed apartment, 1700 square feet.
 Oh, well?
 They had to live and work in 1700 square feet.
 Huh.
 And that was their whole life for all that time.
 I don't know if they loved it but they did well
 and they're grateful that they had this experience to live
 with the spirit of planetary adventure
 and exciting future to live on a fixer upper planet.
 (laughing)
 Life Mars with no atmosphere to speak of
 and to be able to see how they could replenish
 their food supplies and water
 and what to do with their waste and all that good stuff.
 No, well, you got to practice till you get it right.
 They lived and dream created live.
 I'm sure their journals are gonna be quite interesting.
 I'm sure, yeah.
 There's gonna be two more of these experiments from NASA
 but this was the first one.
 How many people were in the sim?
 Was it a couple?
 Four volunteer crew members.
 I see.
 Four volunteer crew members.
 Kelly, Hasten, Anka, Slaru, Ross Brockwell
 and Nathan Jones.
 Uh-huh.
 Boys and girls.
 Yeah.
 Okay.
 Yeah, I don't know if they were in relationships or not.
 But they don't tell us in this NASA piece here
 but I wouldn't be surprised.
 Right.
 (whooshing)
 A teen tech whiz has been named God's Influencer.
 Oh, right.
 Because the first millennial saint.
 Since your capital.
 A new saint.
 Yeah, I think I'll let you introduce the audience
 to this story.
 Our latest influencer for God.
 Right, exactly.
 The first millennial saint.
 All right, let's see.
 So we know he's a computer whiz.
 He died of leukemia at the age of 15 in 2006.
 He was born in '91.
 He died in '96.
 So he was only 15 years old.
 That's right.
 And the patron saint of the internet
 because he catalogued eucharistic miracles
 around the world.
 Even though he was only 15.
 So he was one of those little kid hackers in the early '00s
 who set up a database of miracles for people on the internet.
 Pope Francis and a group of cardinals approved
 saint Acutus for canonization on Monday.
 I guess they gave him recognition
 for the benediction last October
 which is the recognition of the first miracle
 that qualifies him as a saint.
 And they need to have two miracles to be qualified as a saint.
 So I remember seeing it in October
 that his benediction had been validated by the pope.
 Yeah, yeah.
 Yeah.
 So the fact that he has now been approved as of Monday,
 they are saying that he will likely be proclaimed a saint
 at some point in 2025.
 During the church's jubilee year.
 I didn't know next year was a jubilee year.
 That's pretty cool.
 Hey, in jubilee, they forgive all the debts.
 Maybe that's what all of our candidates are hoping on.
 Hoping is gonna happen.
 I know we had Joe Biden visit the pope.
 We had Donald Trump visit the pope in the last few years.
 So maybe they're all conspiring for a big surprise.
 Thank you.
 (laughs)
 Okay.
 So let's see, Saint Acutus or two B names,
 Saint Acutus was a devout Catholic.
 He taught himself programming from an early age.
 He created websites with a spiritual focus
 and he is wisely praised for his database of miracles.
 I'd like to see that.
 He's credited with helping homeless people
 and defending victims of bullying during his lifetime.
 And he had a hand of two healing miracles after his death.
 The miracles attributed to him happened after his death.
 There are three steps to becoming a saint
 in the Catholic church.
 The person must be deceased and the pope
 must declare him venerable,
 which is a formal recognition that he lived heroically
 and virtuously during life.
 And then in order to be beatified and recognized as blessed,
 they must have taken part in a miracle.
 Usually one of healing and canonization
 requires a second miracle after beatification.
 And Acutus was beatified last October,
 as I previously said.
 And it was because he was recognized
 to have interceded from heaven in 2013
 to save the life of a Brazilian child
 who was suffering from a rare pancreatic condition.
 So the Vatican also said that four-year-old
 Matthias Vianna was healed after praying to Acutus
 and coming into contact with one of his relics,
 a piece of clothing.
 Boy, welcome to the modern world, huh?
 - Yeah.
 (laughs)
 - Okay, the second miracle attributed to Acutus
 was in May of this year.
 A girl from Costa Rica suffered a serious head trauma
 after falling off a bike in Florence, Italy,
 but she recovered against the odds
 after her mother prayed at Acutus tomb in Assisi.
 So Acutus mother, whose name is Antonia Salizano,
 told CNN that the second miracle approved
 was both a great joy and a sign of hope.
 So she said with all the media, the technologies,
 it seems sometimes that holiness
 is something that belongs to the past.
 Instead, holiness is also something nowadays
 in this modern time.
 There you go.
 - Thanks for reading it.
 - Thanks for finding it.
 I think stuff like that's very interesting
 'cause despite what the mainstream media is telling us,
 despite what many dictators in the world
 try to enforce through their will in law,
 people have a deep reverence for the miracles of life
 and our religious institutions represent the history
 of us holding that reverence.
 You may have personal issues against some of the crimes
 that institutions have committed during their longevity,
 but it's all people.
 It's people and we all are feeling what we're feeling.
 And some of us are inclined to appreciate the magical
 and the miraculous and the mysterious
 and the way that we feel taken care of
 by forces greater than ourselves,
 even if it's all accidental.
 - Yeah, yeah.
 Even if it's all accidental.
 - Hey, we've got some phone calls.
 Why don't we talk to our phone folks?
 - Okay, that's okay.
 We can bring on guest on the phone.
 - You're gonna love our first guest.
 It's Nordic Dave.
 - Oh, Nordic Dave, all right.
 - You're ready to say hi to Nordic Dave?
 - Sure, Nordic Dave.
 - Hey, come on in.
 - All right, there you are.
 - I can't believe you still let that guy in the air.
 (laughing)
 - I know, I just, the school is--
 - The quality of the shirt just dropped 10 points, so.
 - Oh yeah, well.
 - You mean because of Nordic Dave?
 - Yeah.
 - Yeah.
 - No way.
 You're great, man.
 - You always say what?
 - I think, I appreciate you.
 You're my cheerleader, right?
 I do that little pep talk.
 I think about the second miracle.
 - Uh-huh.
 - If you could get your friend out of jail,
 be for being a sovereign citizen.
 - No, I don't think she's gonna go to jail.
 It's not a crime to be a sovereign citizen.
 And I don't even think the jury is gonna find her guilty
 because the only thing that even has a potential
 recommended sentence of one year is resisting arrest.
 And she was never arrested.
 You know what?
 In fact, that's the point.
 The arrest didn't happen until after she had already
 provided her name to the officer.
 So the officer knew who she was,
 and she had provided her paperwork about the car.
 And the officer just was not having it.
 The officer is like, "Well, you didn't do what I said.
 You're not following my orders.
 I'm gonna keep ordering you to do what I say.
 And if you don't do that, I'm charging you
 with resisting arrest."
 But she could only arrest her for not showing her license,
 which she had already done,
 and not showing her car license,
 which she had already done, which are both fixate tickets.
 - Arguing with a cop on the street is like the dumbest idea.
 I mean, two thirds of their training is
 how to get you to obey what they tell you.
 - I know, but now they're going to actually sue the school
 for mistraining the officers.
 Instead of peacefully engaging the people
 they're supposed to serve,
 I have a question for you, Nordic Dave.
 - I'm trying to push a little blue Bluetooth button
 on my board here, and in order to reconnect the Bluetooth
 and nothing's happening.
 - You do what I always do, which is,
 you know, like you're sick and you go to the doctor
 and all the sudden you feel better?
 I threatened it with a soldering iron.
 - Right?
 - And it keeps it in play.
 (laughing)
 - Yeah, that's a ticket.
 I think what I'll try to do is I'll get it.
 - Don't maybe get out the soldering iron.
 I got the weller right here, buddy.
 - Yeah, right.
 You hear that computer?
 You better connect.
 - It's hard a little better.
 - All right.
 - Your guys, audio fidelity is off the hook
 in the new studio.
 - Well, thank you.
 Thank you, Santa Cruz Boys.
 Bill, Dave, all you guys who helped,
 it's wonderful to be here.
 - Yeah, Bobby's sounding good too.
 - Yeah, all right.
 - That's good to hear.
 - That's connected, yeah.
 - Son, your friend is with Sovereign Citizen.
 Are they, I'd like to get her on the air.
 I talk to her.
 - I will.
 Hey, when she's not in court,
 I'm very happy to bring her on.
 She's a very articulate person.
 Right now, she is completely frazzled
 because it was very traumatic.
 - They played the tape today, right?
 - Yeah, they played the tape today.
 And it was a 20 minute encounter
 which started with, you know,
 a female police officer, officer Negrenti.
 And she called a backup officer Garcia.
 And then the two of them were assisted by a third officer
 in plain clothes whose names we don't know.
 And it took three of them.
 - Oh, I know all three of their names actually.
 - Oh?
 - Yeah, do we beat them in how?
 (laughing)
 - Well, yeah.
 They were kind of thinking like that they're allowed to do that.
 These officers were basically
 an 100% responsible for escalating the entire situation.
 And now they're in court trying to act like
 they were afraid of her because she was telling them
 she wanted to discuss the law with them.
 And the more that she wanted to discuss the law with them,
 the more they ramped it up to say,
 "Hey, show me your papers."
 And if you don't show me your papers,
 I'm throwing you on the ground out of the car
 and then I'm gonna arrest you.
 And then I'm gonna throw you on the car.
 - They'll be your papers.
 I want your papers.
 - Yeah, so the cops were basically threatening her
 the whole time and they were kind of like acting like
 they're being polite and she's not respecting their authority.
 And they were never polite.
 They were always intimidating.
 I certainly would not be swayed if I were on the jury.
 Oh, and they somehow sort of forgot to record the audio
 for the first three minutes of the stop.
 And then according to Monica, which is hearsay
 'cause it's not recorded, Monica's told the officer,
 she's recording the engagement and the officer said,
 "Well, you don't need to because I am."
 But the officer was not recording it at that time
 and walking back to the car to turn the recorder on.
 So that's what Monica said, you know?
 - So, and the judge is saying, "Well, you can't say anything
 'cause it's hearsay unless it's recorded."
 (laughs)
 The judge, he's doing a very good job
 of trying to make the courtroom educational
 and somewhat entertaining and polite,
 but he's doing a very bad job of not leading the witnesses
 and acting like she's presumed innocent
 until proving guilty.
 He's been like pointing it to her when he's saying,
 don't think this person is guilty.
 When he's instructing the jury,
 he basically has said many times in court
 that he disagrees with Monica's position
 that the police officer doesn't have the right
 to pull her over.
 So, I don't know why the judge didn't dismiss it
 a long time ago.
 It seems like he wanted it to go all the way to jury,
 even though Monica doesn't have a lawyer
 and it's such a waste of everybody's time.
 And some of the jurors got really pissed off
 that it's such a waste of court time
 and all these people being there,
 this is kind of the point Monica's trying to make
 is that by not honoring our right to privacy as citizens
 and instructing our police to violate our right
 to citizens on the presumption of guilt,
 which the police officer has already said,
 they assume if they don't know who you are
 or what your car is, they don't know you haven't committed
 a crime, so they're presuming that you're guilty
 and then using that as a reason to arrest you
 for not showing your papers.
 And this is the point she's trying to make in court
 without a lawyer, so God bless her.
 I hope she really comes out ahead on this.
 - Well, I'd like to have her on,
 that's what we got Timothy McVay for, right?
 He was a sovereign citizen,
 he didn't have his license plates.
 - Oh, really?
 - That's how they got him, yeah.
 I empathize with people who take these positions,
 the same people who say like income tax is illegal
 so they don't pay it.
 It's just so hard to fight the government.
 - Well, it is, especially when the government,
 like the judge sitting there will not dismiss the case
 when you're telling him no crime is committed
 so there shouldn't be any criminal charges
 and we shouldn't be in a criminal court.
 And he's like, well, the jury decide.
 And meanwhile, he's like telling the jury not to listen
 to her or saying that it's a constitutional issue
 of violation of her rights.
 And what he's going to instruct them to do
 is decide whether or not she's guilty of the charges,
 which is resisting arrest, not showing your license
 and not displaying your car registration.
 - I'd be curious to have her on and hear her.
 - I'll get you guys in touch, no problem.
 Thanks for letting me talk about it some more too.
 I'm fascinated. - Yeah, I'd be fun to do this stuff.
 (laughs)
 - Yeah, I have her on to just show a beach thing
 just to hear her background more about this.
 There's a lot of people who have this philosophy.
 - Yeah.
 - And just teaching how she arrived at it
 and how successful she's been with it.
 - Yeah. Yeah, well, according to her,
 she's pulled over dozens of police officers so far
 and educated them and they've left her alone
 and she has a whole bunch of case studies saying
 that she knows she's right,
 but this judge is not having it.
 This judge doesn't believe her
 and isn't really allowing her to dismiss the case in his court.
 All right, well, let's say we're in our last minute here
 before we go to our break.
 Anything you wanna say here?
 - If the A31-265-5050 is the number to call in
 and I think that's the-- - You're in the party.
 - Yeah, the joint of the party, right,
 that's where our guest is gonna call in now
 because this Bluetooth is dropped and is not showing up.
 - Okay. - Yeah.
 - So you gave the number to our guest.
 - All right. - And we'll use the phone lines.
 - All right, well, great hearing from you Nordic Dave
 and you wanna tell people when they can tune into your show?
 - Yeah, we're gonna be Thursdays from three to five PM
 for China Now Radio, with Nan Tzu and Michael Olson
 and David Welch.
 - Right on, all right.
 And this is Santa Cruz Voice.
 We are in the satellite for some--
 - I imagine you're getting more and more stuff
 to talk about China all the time these days.
 It seems to be more and more than--
 - Oh, it's a target rich environment.
 - Wow, okay, anyway, we gotta go now, Thursday.
 - Okay, bye bye. - Bye bye.
 - Three to five, bye. - Three to five.
 - Connected, I am inspired, I am in harmony,
 I am integrity, I am perfect, I am manifestation,
 I am dissolving, I am releasing, I am liberated,
 I am dedicated, I am universalized and doable.
 (electronic music)
 - And we're back. - We are back, yes.
 This is Ellen Londell, AKA Doctor of Future
 and Mrs. Future at the controls, our sunny bunny,
 I like to color. - Yeah.
 - And Bobby Wilder in San Francisco,
 our size correspondent, Bobby, welcome back to the show.
 - Yeah, I'm glad to be here with you.
 - Yes, and everybody.
 - Yes, and we have Katrina,
 Katrina Valencourt on the line,
 and her husband, Steven, I'm not sure what Steven's last name is.
 - Gileary.
 - Gileary, Steven, Gileary, welcome,
 welcome Steven and Katrina to the show.
 - You know, we have known Katrina for many years,
 probably 20 years, if we-- - At least.
 - At least, right, and we've mostly known you
 as a love coach, a workshop leader, a mediator,
 trained in nonviolent communications
 and working with spiritual and transformational studies
 and people for all this time.
 - Yeah, you're a total love being.
 - Yeah, and one of the best huggers in the universe.
 (laughing)
 - And a beautiful dancer and a wonderful mother
 and a lovely friend.
 We're a little biased to just knowing how wonderful you are.
 And I have to say that your book,
 which I haven't had a chance to read all the way to the end,
 but just the amount that I've read so far is beautiful.
 It's so engaging and so empathetic.
 It just creates an opportunity for people to go really deep
 with what's happening both in the misinformation world
 and spiritually in our time.
 - Recovery, how I tumbled down the QAnon rabbit hole
 and climbed out.
 Now-- - And recovery with you.
 - And recovery with a Q.
 (laughing)
 By you and Laurie Masters, I guess is your co-writer.
 - Well, it was my editor.
 Amazing, amazing editor,
 couldn't have asked for a better partner.
 - Ah, okay, that's good.
 And I'm glad you're here to represent both you and her
 in this process that we went through here.
 Now, here we are.
 You're a professional, many ways therapist and coach
 and training and-- - Yes.
 - And you were doing pretty well at C.
 - I thought of therapists to be clear.
 I'm a non-violent communication trainer and facilitator
 and I do mediation work as well,
 but I'm not a licensed therapist.
 - Okay, all right.
 Nonetheless, you're very sensitive, emotionally attuned being.
 - Definitely.
 - And seem to be doing pretty well.
 You're about to get married.
 You had a fiance, Steven, at the time.
 When you came across this series of videos
 that were about the Q and on process
 that ends up changing your life.
 Could you tell our audience a little bit about
 what happened that fateful night
 when your world turned upside down?
 - Sure, I also want to just add in,
 I was born and raised in Madison, Wisconsin.
 Then I moved to Santa Cruz,
 I was there for 10 years before moving up to the Bay area.
 - So I have been in democratic progressive strongholds
 all my life.
 - Bernie, you were a big Bernie supporter.
 - Yes, very, very passionate Bernie supporter.
 You could not know that about me.
 - Right, right.
 - In 2020, speaking of beyond, definitely.
 So my entire surroundings were from the
 Democrat progressive narrative, my entire adult life.
 I really did not know any Republicans or conservatives.
 And when I came across them,
 I had immediate bias about who they were.
 At the time, the day before I watched
 this infamous video series,
 I could not see an image of Trump
 or hear his voice without feeling nausea and anger.
 Some of the represented in part one of my book,
 there's a conversation you'll see between myself and Tanya
 that's actually pretty close to word for word
 that I pulled off of a Facebook messenger thread
 that we had shared.
 So I just wanna make it really clear that stepping into this,
 I thought I would be one of the last people you would suspect
 would ever have an overnight flip and support Trump
 the very next day.
 - Yeah, from Bernie to Trump.
 Yeah, that's quite a transition.
 - Yes, yes.
 It was quite a transition for me and at least as much
 of a transition for Steven, June of 2020
 was a highly stressful time for most people on the planet.
 I think the people who did well
 were people who were financially stable introverts
 and they just got to enjoy being at home.
 But I'm very extrovert and there were a number of stressors
 again in part one of my book that accumulated.
 And so when I pressed play on this video series
 at 11 o'clock at night,
 where I was just shaking and stressing, couldn't sleep
 and that's very unusual for me,
 I was not in the most grounded state of mind.
 I also had never heard of QAnon before.
 - Really? - Was not at that point.
 June 2020, it was starting to come out
 but I just didn't pay it attention.
 And this particular video series turns out
 to have been one of the most successful series
 for flipping people into QAnon,
 especially the track that I flipped into,
 there was a, I think it was Concordia University,
 yes, there's a Concordia University researcher
 who coined this particular track of QAnon pastel Q.
 - Pastel Q, that's a search algorithm, yeah.
 - Pastel, yeah, it emphasizes child protection,
 it appeals to maternal instincts
 and it promotes natural health and spirituality.
 - The mothers, these are the natural health practitioners,
 they're the ones who try and go to a naturopath
 and to the organic food store and the co-op
 and try and avoid Western medicine as much as possible
 because we wanna believe that our natural health
 is supported by our food.
 - So it's tuned into that belief system, right?
 To tune into this, like, and then giving you information
 that you would consider seriously
 because that is your sensibilities.
 - Yes, I mean, there's so much more to it than that
 but I just, you wanna make it just because
 what I discovered after coming out of QAnon,
 I didn't see it while I was in it,
 is that there are so many people who have been taught
 that if you are a QAnon or if you support Trump,
 you must be a racist, fascist, anti-Semite,
 transphobe, homophobe, delusional,
 there's just a list of terms that get thrown
 at people who support Trump or fell into QAnon.
 - Yes, it is very polarizing, very polarizing.
 - I just did see any of that stuff when I was in it.
 What I saw, there are children who are being profoundly abused,
 taken from their parents, profoundly abused,
 to a degree that's completely darkened sinister
 and there is an evil cabal that is trying
 to depopulate the planet.
 I also came in at a time that QAnon
 and the COVID narratives were merging.
 As I was not trusting what the media was telling us
 about COVID, I had that happening at the same general time
 as I fell into QAnon and so it was easy for me
 and others to put together this idea
 that the dark and evil satanic cabal
 that is spoken about in the QAnon lore
 is also the same group of people who are trying to depopulate
 the planet through a poorly tested vaccine.
 And of course we've seen a lot of stories around--
 - Oh yeah, well the facts of course, yeah,
 there's a huge controversy.
 Yeah, and that's--
 - Right.
 - And there's plenty of people who don't trust
 that the vaccine and the mandates were the best thing to do
 but they don't believe in QAnon either.
 And they are distinct arguments.
 I think it's very important to pull those apart
 because we can't really effectively look at how to support
 people who have gotten caught up in the QAnon theories
 if we're gonna map those on as if they're the same thing.
 And--
 - Well I remember that the origins of the QAnon,
 where did they come from?
 Have you seen the anti-social network?
 Have you seen how that evolved?
 - I did.
 - Yeah, thank you.
 The anti-social network shows the board
 kind of what happened on the 4chan and 8chan boards
 where these Qdrops were posted.
 We also know that the digital activist group,
 Anonymous came from these boards.
 - Right, I guess that's the Anon part of the Q.
 - Certainly when I saw that jockey memory,
 the digital activist Anonymous were a small group
 of people who participated on these boards.
 It's not like everyone on the board was part of Anonymous.
 And the same thing here, you know,
 people who are on the board might like to call themselves Anons.
 You know, maybe some of them have higher training
 than others but we really don't know
 who the Anons are.
 All we know is that they seem to have interacted
 on these messaging boards.
 - No.
 Was it that first sucked you in?
 Was it a particular retelling of a story like 9/11
 or the vaccines or?
 - It was a number of things that came together.
 That video is three hours and it's densely packed
 with all kinds of information.
 It wove together every conspiracy theory I've ever heard of
 and then added a whole bunch more to the table.
 So there were some things I was familiar with.
 I just hadn't really spent much time or attention on them
 but they're familiar with things like 9/11 or chemtrails
 which are also called geoengineering aerosols.
 I was familiar with these things
 but I wasn't familiar with some of the other pieces
 that QAnon brought in.
 Again, kind of the dark, the satanic,
 the abusive children aspect.
 And the video uses hypnotic techniques
 and sensationalism.
 Did also this woman Janet who created the video,
 she says, "Don't take my word for it."
 She said, "Everything's really messed up in the world
 "and it's worse than you could possibly imagine
 "but there's really good news."
 That's the setup for the series.
 - I see.
 The savior has arrived, you know?
 - What's that?
 - The savior has arrived.
 - Yeah.
 - Yeah.
 - All kinds of stuff sort of goes.
 But she said, "I'm gonna show you all of these things
 "but don't take my word for it, do your own research."
 And in watching this video
 and there's things I'm familiar with,
 there's also some that I am not familiar with.
 There's things that are new
 and it builds up from, you know,
 starts with California fires which were traumatic enough
 but over the course of seven videos,
 it builds up into material that is so devastating.
 Again, having to do with children
 that I was sobbing, it's emotionally,
 I felt like I broke when that information came through
 and at that point I needed a solution.
 It's like, "Oh my goodness, if this is true,
 "I'm gonna do my research and check it out."
 But if this is true, it's so dark, it's so bad,
 it has to stop, there has to be a solution.
 - Are you talking about all the pedo stuff,
 like the adrenochrome and all those stories?
 - All of that dark stuff, yes.
 - Yeah.
 - And it showed some photos and some videos
 to build that case and it's difficult for me
 to even talk about it.
 Like I don't want my mind to go there
 'cause it's so dark.
 - Sure, yeah.
 - Yeah.
 - And so then the news is that Q,
 this deep state insider is working with a whole team
 of good guys inside our government
 and they're going to expose the cabal in the deep state
 and bring them to justice
 and they'll all be put in Guantanamo Bay.
 That's the thing that if people are familiar
 with the Q and on Lord, that would be the storm.
 - Well, that's similar to a lot of the Trump rhetoric
 for the first term too, like the drain the swamp and all that.
 - Yeah, definitely.
 - Yes, I think I remember seeing images of Trump
 around that time wearing a Superman outfit
 and he's gonna save us all from the deep state.
 - I don't know if I saw those,
 but I've seen other people create memes of him as Superman
 or him as Jesus.
 He's certainly played on that second coming of Christ.
 But he's not the Q guy though, he's not Q.
 Q is it?
 - Yeah, just a quick question here is that you say
 you went through this switch overnight
 and it was the night that the Democratic Convention
 selected Biden instead of Bernie.
 And what is it that suddenly,
 what was your attitude towards Trump after that
 in your moment and was that created by these videos?
 - I don't remember the Democratic National Convention.
 I remember Bernie endorsing Biden in April
 and for me that was a horrible moment.
 I lost hope because I didn't trust that Biden
 was gonna do what needed to be done
 to turn our country around.
 I loved what I heard from Bernie.
 - So that wasn't the moment.
 - No, what that did though,
 is it did set up a narrative that Bernie just kept talking
 about how the power gap, the wealth gap was huge
 and pointing to money and power,
 the accumulation of money and power among this elite class
 as being the major problem that we have to solve.
 And the key one on Laura is very similar to that.
 It just says that there are people among the elite,
 the top of the pyramid for whom wealth and power
 is not enough, they want complete control
 of all humans on the planet.
 They're looking to enslave the planet
 and basically create a world that works for them
 and no one else.
 - Jesus, beginning to sound very metaphysical here.
 - So besides that you were exposed to this,
 I'm just curious, is like what is it that caused you
 to take it in?
 Why did it seem so believable to you all of a sudden?
 - I wanted something to hold on to for hope.
 I wanted something to believe in again
 because I had lost hope in our political system.
 So that was there, but beyond that,
 this idea of do your own research.
 I watched this entire video and then I was like,
 okay, well let me debunk everything I can debunk first.
 And so I looked for the most bizarre
 and disturbing points of information from the video.
 - And the pizza parlor stuff.
 - Yeah, well a little bit.
 I looked into the wiki leaks.
 What were the emails between Clinton and Podesta?
 Does Podesta actually have a bronze beheaded statue
 of a Jeffrey Dahmer victim in his house?
 Does he own this bizarre art collection?
 Was Lady Gaga at some spirit cooking dinner
 where she's drinking something that looks like blood?
 Just weird, weird stuff.
 - You investigated these?
 What did you find?
 Did you find any evidence?
 - I found pages and pages and pages of evidence
 saying yes, this is true.
 What I didn't know was that by June of 2020,
 QAnon had been around for over two years.
 It started in October of 2017.
 And so people, they had created websites
 and put up all of this information.
 You could look into any of this on a Google search
 in June of 2020.
 Again, it was pages and pages of evidence.
 And so when I saw that,
 I didn't look at the quality of evidence.
 I was like, oh my God, with this many websites
 saying the same thing, this must be true.
 - The emotionality of it really got you though.
 - Definitely huge emotion.
 And so that both began to cement my new belief system,
 but it also created Google has these AI algorithms.
 It checks and sees what it is you're interested in,
 Facebook, YouTube, all these social media platforms
 have these AI algorithms that are designed
 to maximize user attention.
 So when I began to search for these really bizarre
 and dark things, it went, oh, we know what you like.
 - To watch.
 - Here's some more.
 - And all of a sudden, I've gone into an AI built
 echo chamber that was confirming my new bias.
 And so every single day, I was fed news,
 I was fed videos, I was fed these sensationalist,
 QAnon related content, all of my social media feeds.
 - So it was really just the Google bias
 and the fact that Google was finding a lot of the information
 and it was uncensored that was contributing to your belief
 that it was credible.
 - That was a huge part of it.
 I can't go back and look at all of those
 to see what is credible and what is not.
 And I can tell you, Lady Gaga drinking blood out of this,
 that image is real.
 What I didn't know is it was an art benefit.
 It's a really kind of in my mind dark and strange art,
 but it looks like a dead woman in a tub of blood.
 And you see Lady Gaga and a couple other famous people
 with their spoons that actually exist,
 but then it gets twisted.
 - Yeah, the context.
 - Well, that was shifted.
 - It was part of a satanic fall.
 - Yeah, yeah.
 - I'm curious then, we've sort of established
 that there was a lot of hooks to get you in
 and that you really entered hook, line, and sinker.
 Now, what was the darkest moment
 that indicated that there was a crisis?
 When did you know you needed to re-examine
 where your gullibility had brought you?
 - Goodness, there's so many points along the way
 that supported that narrative to break down,
 but I would say it was really right at the end.
 Between late October and early December,
 there were a series of moments that just started
 to break down my mind's commitment
 to believing this narrative.
 And by mid December, I was spinning in fear and anxiety.
 I had been, I'd had so many impressions made on my mind
 of very dark imagery, very dark,
 supposed reveals about the cabal,
 and many stories of all the things that could go wrong.
 We're gonna have a financial collapse
 and we're gonna have a climate collapse.
 China's gonna take over.
 There were just so many stories
 of inevitable disaster that I had soaked into my mind,
 but I was really spinning in fear and anxiety
 and that made it nearly impossible for me to be present
 in my day-to-day life.
 Stephen was wearing thin.
 What I didn't know, of course,
 I was up all night watching this film.
 The next morning, I'm a Trump supporter.
 I'm acting weird.
 I'm not talking to him.
 That's the beginning of six months journey.
 - Did you just, what did you say?
 Stephen, you better watch this.
 - I did.
 I told him to watch it.
 - I did.
 Yeah, after about a week.
 - After about a week.
 Did you, did you watch it?
 - Yeah, I did.
 - Yeah.
 - And it was, no incatrina.
 It hit home as to why it grabbed her.
 It was very effective at setting up a problem case
 and then you bought that and then delivering a solution.
 I could see her breathing a sigh of relief
 that, oh, somebody's gonna fix this.
 And in my opinion, that's what grabbed her.
 There was a savior that was gonna actually make things right.
 - Yeah.
 - Yeah, who are you gonna call?
 (laughs)
 - Yeah.
 - Listen, you guys, we're gonna have to take a short little break
 for our station and then in two minutes,
 we're gonna come back and keep discussing
 this amazing experience that you had.
 Really. - Yes, and I like to answer
 the question on who is Q after the break.
 - I'll do that for a couple of minutes.
 All right, be right back.
 - Good luck.
 (laughs)
 Thanks.
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 (air whooshing)
 - Welcome back to the show everybody.
 - We're done with Katrina Vellancourt
 and her husband, Stephen Gillieri.
 Gillieri, thank you.
 About the QAnon phenomenon and a book Katrina has written
 about her fall into the Q hole and back out again.
 You covered a rabbit hole, right?
 No, for the uninitiated.
 Can you explain why it's a rabbit hole?
 - You know, that just seems to be what's going around
 when you fall deep into something
 and your mind just gets consumed with it.
 It's being called a rabbit hole.
 So oftentimes conspiracy theories where somebody's like,
 "Whoa, I have to learn about this."
 It's considered a rabbit hole.
 Although now people are also saying,
 "I'm getting big into the permaculture rabbit hole."
 - Right.
 - So, rabbit really just the way of saying,
 "My mind got consumed by something."
 - Yes, yes, it's interesting because there are,
 also people are throwing around the term silos lately a lot.
 You can hear that?
 - Yes, information silos, these online media algorithms,
 they continue to confirm your bias.
 Whatever you believe, whatever you search for,
 you will be given information that says you're right.
 And the challenges, we all have our unique information silos
 that the AI algorithms have designed for each of us.
 And we're living in these disparate realities
 and having a hard time communicating with each other
 in a world of chaotic news.
 - Yes, it's getting more and more so too.
 Yes.
 - That's the time.
 - I assume that the pastel track is that that's similar
 to that idea that the algorithms of the search engines
 will send you more of what you are looking for
 based on who you are and what you just did in.
 But given that, did you try other search engines?
 Did you try going to duck-duck-go?
 - Sure, I did.
 And at the time, there was so much populated online
 in support of the QAnon narrative
 that it didn't matter what search engine I used.
 Any social media platform, anywhere I went,
 if I searched for things related to QAnon,
 I got plenty of it.
 - Now in your book, you said you tried talking
 to your friends about it and that didn't always work out.
 Well, what happened there?
 You didn't have friends that you couldn't--
 - Right, we're not--
 - Go ahead.
 - My stations with my friends were primarily on text messaging
 and Facebook, which is part of the reason
 I've been able to weave so much of those exact dialogues
 into the book.
 Generally speaking, it did not go well.
 I got a lot of pushback.
 I had some people name calling me, which was a surprise,
 and I had people blocking me.
 So socially, it was very painful.
 And in the first 24 hours, I found at least 12 other people
 who clearly also had seen what I had seen
 in terms of the QAnon narrative and also believed it.
 That also was part of what anchored it for me.
 It was like, okay, we're some of the early people
 who have seen what's really going on.
 And there's something in that that feels thrilling.
 It was for me to think of myself as special
 for having seen something that other people
 just weren't awake to yet.
 So, I think in other books, I would say,
 and this might sound strange, but after I watched
 that video series, before it, I was in this intense
 stress and fear, Bernie's not gonna save the day.
 What do we have left?
 And COVID was crazy.
 What's going on on top of all of our other crises
 happening in the world?
 And when I watched this video, there was some mechanism
 that happened in my mind where when I believed the narrative,
 my fear disappeared.
 And I felt imbued with love.
 I felt present.
 I felt elated.
 I felt tremendous gratitude.
 My emotional state was night and day different.
 When I first became a QAnon, and that initial sense of elation
 lasted for the first maybe six to eight weeks
 before it started to go dark again.
 Was what I hardly had any friends or family
 who are willing to understand what I perceive
 to be was the good news.
 - So, you maintain new communications with your new friends
 and drop conversations with those.
 You couldn't talk about these things.
 - You couldn't gravitate towards the people who agree with you.
 - Yeah, interesting.
 - And passion and sympathy for what you're going through.
 - Tell me what an asking did.
 Were these friends like people that you could actually
 hang out with and meet in person
 or was it all online relationships?
 - This is 2020.
 We were still in lockdown.
 So everything was online.
 We went to Sedona for a few months.
 And Sedona was not on the same kind of lockdown.
 Their businesses were still open.
 They were still outdoor dancing almost every single day.
 People were hugging each other and hanging out.
 It was honestly quite relieving in contrast
 to the California experience.
 So I was able to hang out with some people
 who clearly believed something closer to what I did
 when we were in Arizona, which was relieving for me
 and stressful for Stephen.
 - Yeah, what did it do to your relationship with Stephen?
 You guys were just falling in love then
 and the onsays and all that.
 (laughing)
 What happened?
 - It really brought us to our edge.
 I think it's a miracle that Stephen stayed with me
 through that time.
 - Did he provide you an alternative point of view
 of what was going on during this whole time?
 - Yeah, but you're talking to somebody
 who's fallen into QAnon, rational conversation
 to try and talk you into a different point of view.
 It does not work whatsoever.
 It's backfires.
 And I think anybody who's been in a relationship
 with somebody who's fell into QAnon can say that.
 They hate it 'cause they really want rational thinking
 to save the day, but it's emotional.
 And if you try and use a rational argument,
 the person usually pushes you away
 and goes deeper down the rabbit hole.
 - Right.
 - Do you have any particular examples?
 Yeah, Stephen?
 - I was just gonna say early on
 when the first couple of weeks for making the flip,
 I was trying to come to grips with who she was now
 'cause literally she changed overnight.
 Her energy state was completely different.
 And so it was quite a bit of just trying
 to get my own feet under me.
 And I was seeking a lot of advice and counsel
 from people that were ultimately very helpful,
 including her father and her son,
 as well as my therapist.
 I reached out to a couple of psychologists
 and various other places to try to get input.
 And they gave me some wonderful advice, which I followed.
 And ultimately I gave myself about six months
 to figure it out.
 And that was to watch to see if Katrina would come back
 to being who she was, or if she didn't,
 whether we could still find a place to be happy together
 with her having ones that have beliefs and me and other.
 Thankfully she came through, I think in month five,
 she was clear that she was coming back
 to being her former self.
 - It's trying to come out, but it's not.
 - Really?
 Was there a particular event or a person or a moment
 where you started to turn or was it a dis?
 - Yeah, did it stop holding water for some reason?
 - You sent other documentaries with a different point of mind.
 - It was really a combination of things.
 It's part of the reason I wrote a book.
 That's the question people most want to know and understand.
 And I can give a short answer, but it doesn't do it justice.
 - Sure.
 - So part four in the book is really all of the steps
 along the way that started to break down the narratives.
 And the book leading up to that gives you context for part four.
 And why it was so hard.
 And why it was gripping so much.
 Part five is the recovery.
 You had asked earlier, was there a particular dark moment?
 Close to that end of the six months.
 As I said, I was spinning in fear and anxiety.
 I couldn't be present.
 And I remember Stephen turning to me and said,
 if you keep going like this, it will destroy you
 and it will destroy us.
 And I'd also had conversations with my dad
 and I was recognizing that I was in this perpetual
 state of fear and anxiety.
 And I could feel that it was destroying my quality of life.
 And I imagined to my since Stephen's shoes,
 I wouldn't want to be around somebody who was like that
 all the time.
 That was a wake up call.
 - So how do you recover once you face the fact that it's a lie?
 - Yeah, that's a big thing.
 And a lot of people don't recover.
 Or some people get out of Q and A and never want to talk about it.
 They leave it in the closet and unprocess material.
 - But that's part five of the book, How Do You Recover?
 - Yeah, and I think there's important elements to that
 for people who are around somebody who's gone into the rabbit hole.
 And that is making it safe for them to come back out.
 So many people do a lot of damage to their relationships
 and they get pushed away.
 But they find a warm embrace in their Q and A on community.
 And in order for you to entice them back,
 it can't be combative.
 It has to be love-based.
 It has to be welcoming.
 It has to be forgiving.
 And you have to give them a warm place to land
 and let them know that it's okay.
 That's not easy for a lot of people, but it's critical.
 - It's essential.
 - So, I'm curious that having gone through
 a total belief conversion and then recovery,
 your state of holding on to the various beliefs now,
 like do you have a smorgasbord?
 Some of what you believed is true
 and some of it isn't, or have you just dismissed it all
 as secondhand stories and you just don't know?
 - Is this reality just really messy?
 - Is there something that you now cling to
 with strong fervent belief?
 - I cling to the strong fervent belief
 that love is the answer to every problem.
 That's a really big question.
 I have done my best to answer it in the book.
 And a part of it was just recognizing
 that trying to sort it all out
 was part of what was driving my fear and anxiety.
 I had a huge amount of just saying,
 I don't know, that's okay.
 And learning to live with uncertainty.
 Having said that there are some things I still believe
 and there's other things I don't,
 but to try and sort that out is just seems stressful.
 - Yeah, I guess from my perspective,
 what I think I've observed is conspiracy theories
 attract people because there's a kernel of truth
 at the center of it.
 And then a lot of stuff gets piled around the outside
 that creates the conspiracy aspect.
 Take child sex trafficking as an example.
 Clearly happening in our world.
 Clearly it's a disgusting problem.
 The QAnon narrative took it to extremes
 and made it a us versus them type of a dynamic
 and the man who had it go to.
 - Made it political too.
 - Was people like Finfrey and the Dalai Lama and the Pope
 and Barack Obama and go on and on and on.
 They were all pedophiles and blah, blah, blah
 in that narrative.
 - Yeah.
 - Recognizing that there was a kernel of truth
 to all of these things or the potential
 for a kernel of truth.
 - Part of the sense-making process.
 - Yeah, it's part of the sense-making process exactly.
 And I think one of the things that was instrumental
 for Katrina was a while in it coming
 was getting her to really just try to focus
 on what's immediately in front of us.
 What can we touch and see and feel and hear and taste?
 - Yeah.
 - And let's focus on those things.
 - Yes.
 - And all this other stuff in the outside world
 that could be educated about it.
 But it changed its condition.
 - I had to pull away from it.
 - Completely for about a year.
 I took all of my social media offline.
 I didn't engage in the news.
 If there was a news conversation happening around me,
 I asked to change the conversation or I left the room.
 I had so many impressions on my mind
 that was very easy to stimulate any of these dark impressions.
 And I needed to put other contents in my mind
 so that those darker impressions would not be in the forefront.
 That was part of taking care of my mental and emotional health.
 I'm curious though.
 I know each of you have done reading the book
 and I'm so curious what's your take on it so far?
 - I love your writing.
 I think you are a powerful, engaging writer
 and the way that you are bringing the story together
 with the present tense,
 the way that it's unfolding in real time
 so that you are very much feeling like,
 wait a minute, are you sure about that?
 The voice is something that is very, well, it's--
 - I feel like it's a book of hope
 that it's helping us to stay sane in a crazy world.
 And we're in a point in time now,
 I mentioned this yesterday before we began here
 that one of our issues that we discuss
 is how information is so easily faked these days.
 And we don't, it's getting to the point
 where we could clone voices easily
 and create whatever we want.
 And so it makes it even harder to know what's what.
 So what do we do?
 What you're going through is something
 that many, many will be facing
 as this information insanity continues to evolve.
 - Yeah, and what do we do about it?
 That is the question that you're approaching
 and of course is so ripe for the times here
 because our country is so much in a crisis
 because of the people not knowing who to believe,
 what to believe, the past is not what we thought it was,
 the current is hard to assess
 and how can we engage in a positive creation of the future?
 When people have embraced being so negative,
 I do think that your process is something
 that contributes to the hope that we can make steps
 in the direction of solving these problems.
 - Yeah.
 - And I only read the first two chapters,
 actually to chapter nine about JFK Jr.
 But I couldn't stop and I had to go to sleep
 and I wish I had started this a couple of nights before
 because I was totally unwrapped by,
 because I was a Bernie supporter too.
 And then I was following the same sequences of events
 like you were and being in lockdown
 and then listening to my friends who were telling me
 about QAnon and what was going on
 and the pedophiles and the satanic rituals and stuff,
 I was consumed by that too.
 So I can't wait to finish reading the rest of the book.
 It's beautiful, it's very succinct
 and your eloquence of words and the way it's described.
 And then you actually have retrospective time,
 a look at politically what was going on
 and you go back and forth in time in the book.
 It's great, it's fantastic.
 I think everybody should read this book.
 It's really incredible.
 I just wanna know, yeah,
 I can't wait to get to the end to figure out,
 well, what is the answer to all this?
 - Yeah, and who is Q, man?
 Did you figure that out?
 Did you get to the bottom of the book?
 - Yeah, yeah.
 Now I was able to get to the answer to all of this
 for myself personally in my relationship with my husband,
 my family, my community.
 And then there's a larger question,
 we have societal impact and we have political impact
 and we do have runaway AI.
 And unfortunately we also have industries
 such as the military industrial complex
 that is wanting to hone their skill in AI
 with a zero sum game as their--
 - Yeah, perpetuates their narratives.
 - Yeah, unfortunately.
 Yeah, so those questions, who is Q?
 I really appreciated Vice Media did a series
 where they tried to find out who Q was.
 They didn't actually figure it out.
 It appears that Michael Flynn could have been
 one of the influencers supporting the Q drops.
 It appears it was a small group of people.
 It started out as a live action role play kind of game
 on again the 4chan-8chan boards that used that model
 of we're gonna send you clues and you put together the pieces.
 However, usually in a live action role play,
 there's a goal to the game.
 And here I don't, I think initially the goal
 was to get trumpled up did.
 That's certainly the direction it went later on.
 But the way this live action role play was designed,
 people could pick up the clues
 and make any meaning they wanted.
 We have a psychological tendency as human beings
 for apophania.
 And apophania is the tendency, human tendency
 to put together pieces and make meaning
 where there's no inherent meaning.
 So there's Q in the Q drops and you can find those online
 and then there's Q and on.
 And I would almost call them different things
 because what Q and on has become,
 it's really hard to actually find roots in the Q drops.
 Yeah, yeah, that was really interesting for me
 as I was reading the book,
 I wanted to get really clear on as much as I could.
 Going back to Vice Media, so Michael Flynn,
 he's kind of a poster child for Q,
 but we don't have an answer.
 And nobody has ever figured out for sure who Q is.
 I think that Q has not posted since the 2022 midterms,
 which is also interesting.
 And of course, it was, you know,
 Republicans have to win.
 We're basically the nature of those posts.
 But that's as much as I can tell you about those origins.
 Now, are you familiar with the Illuminati stories
 or Illuminati trilogy by Robert Anton Wilson?
 I'm not.
 Yeah.
 The idea that there's always been a cabal
 that's running everything.
 There's a handful of people.
 It goes way back.
 And there are a lot of stories about who these people
 might be, the puppet masters.
 I wish we could all know for certain
 what is causing the real problems of the world.
 I did have a wonderful conversation with Denny Shehan,
 a mutual friend of ours.
 Yes.
 And Denny is a federal civil rights attorney.
 And so she's a very good--
 Constitutional law.
 Yeah.
 That's what it thinks with objective facts.
 So, you know, when it comes to the deep state,
 some people say this is conspiracy theory.
 He points to the Security Act of 1947
 and the actual creation of a group of people
 within our government who built the CIA
 and the national security state.
 And so when I spoke with him and I just asked him,
 like he said, it's important for us to actually look
 at what was real in QAnon and separate that
 from what was not real.
 Yeah.
 It's like, well, I'm not the person to do that.
 But you could do that, Denny.
 So he talked about how there is a deep state.
 And one of the challenges is that that deep state can take
 QAnon and it can say, look at all of this gobbledygook.
 There's nothing in it that's true.
 There's no deep state and cause the people
 to turn a blind eye to what has become a problem
 in our government.
 Dwight Eisenhower in his final speech to Americans
 talked about the dangerous rise of the military industrial
 complex, my understanding.
 And it could be off, but I'm still learning,
 is that that is basically what Dwight Eisenhower was talking
 about is this national security state.
 Is these dark operatives who are playing a zero-sum game
 enforcing other countries to do the same in return?
 He said that needs to be dismantled.
 And the other thing that needs to be dismantled
 is the corporate law that creates indemnity
 for corporations, that it creates the sociopathic tendency.
 So whether those things have roots in a cabal or not,
 I don't know.
 I would love for us to be able to come to objective truths
 so that we could deeply understand what
 is creating the suffering on Earth in society
 and for the planet.
 With that knowledge, we would be able to make effective choices
 to create the world that we all want,
 where we've got a healthy planet.
 We have safety for all beings.
 We can celebrate diversity and choose,
 live where we feel a sense of belonging.
 I know that's what we all want.
 Yeah, it's interesting because--
 I have to get there.
 Some would say it's an evolution beyond being nationalistic
 or race-oriented and seeing the species as a whole
 and then going from there.
 That's a challenge because we're so nationalistic
 at this point in the time.
 And we've given bad name to being a globalist.
 Globalist is considered bad now.
 But thinking globally is what brought us initially
 the United Nations and the League of Nations.
 Well, the only way that we can all become globalists
 is if the globalist agreements start
 with the freedom of the individual.
 And if free individuals are empowered
 to align their agreements and empower the governments
 and the institutions above them, then
 we can have a global government.
 But if we have globalists that are trying
 to disenfranchise the individuals
 and centralize the power and turn the people into slaves,
 then, of course, we can't have global unity.
 So we have to have something that unites people freely
 of their own choice and will, not something
 that is imposed upon them.
 Maybe it.
 From the more powerful to the less powerful.
 Really understanding.
 And this last question talks about the third attractor
 and what you're talking about aligns
 with that idea of the third attractor,
 where there's shared power and there's
 a governance that actually serves life.
 Which is the beautiful dream of America.
 That we are free people, sovereigns, without subjects,
 who are free to practice our worship of the divine
 in our own way without being interfered with by others.
 And that's why the state and the religions are separated.
 So that individuals can practice their natural born rights
 under God freely.
 I guess seeing others as divine too, I guess, is the challenge.
 Yeah, that's definitely the noble aspect of it.
 Yeah, what it really means to be human.
 Yeah.
 Yeah.
 Well, I don't know for wrapping up right now.
 I think we'll go about two or three minutes.
 So we get your book.
 Let's tell us about where we can find it.
 Actually, we only have one minute, so make it quick.
 Yeah, so you can find the book at recoverybook.com.
 Again, recovery spelled with a Q. It's also
 available on Amazon now.
 I'm getting incredible feedback from people
 who are reading it.
 They're telling me it's engaging.
 It's hard to put down.
 It's very well researched.
 It's giving them insights and a level of compassion
 that they didn't know they could find when looking into this topic.
 Thank you, everybody.
 Have a great future now.
 This has been a great show.
 Thank you so much, Katrina.
 Thank you so much, Steven.
 Yes, thank you.
 Bobby, everybody, we're going to say goodbye now,
 because the next show is going to start in five minutes.
 We'll talk more soon, OK?
 Thanks again, you guys.
 Love, guys.
 Bye.
 Bye-bye.
 Have a great future now, everybody.
 Great week, too.
 Bye-bye.
 Bye bye.