Say kids, what time is that? The future is coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on, it's coming on here, and it's coming on here, and beautiful, Boulder Creek, sunny day today. Yeah, you know, the future has been now for a while, and I have started to refer to our show as an archive as the future as it presented itself. That's true, it's what happened to us this week, and it's usually quite interesting. Captain's Log by the Futures, especially Alan and our friends. Enough with Captain's Log and our friends, for sure. Like you, Bobby? Yeah, Bobby, you're there aren't you? Yes, I'm here, Santa's coming in and out a little bit, but yeah, I'm here. That's pretty good for Alpha Centauri. Yes, so this week was beautiful out on the bay, I must say Santa Cruz Moss Landing, where you took out from? Yes, happy birthday Stessa on the 24th. Beautiful, beautiful out there. Everybody's going to know now. Yeah, it was cloudy on Wednesday, but pleasantly cloudy. Yeah, the weather was delightful to be out on a whale watching trip. Yes, and we got to see quite a few whales, it was really, really sweet. It was nice that we had a biologist, a wildlife marine biologist on the trip that helped. Yes, Eric, if you're listening, boy did we enjoy all the stories about the whales and the other creatures of the Monterey Bay. It was really nice to learn about our neighborhood from you. Definitely, definitely. But I do have about a minute of editing of Eric talking a little bit about the whales. When that cap is born, it's going to want milk instantly and that will ever break down and comes milk. So mom's blubber layer will break down and feed herself and that calf. She'll raise the calf down there for a few months, wait for it to be nice and strong. Eventually, they'll make it to these feeding grounds. Mom, the hardest thing for her ever is taking care of that calf. She's giving up a lot of herself to that calf. So when she comes here, it takes some of the stress off. Why? Because she's eating again. She'll eat again and her milk will get extra fatty. It'll get so fatty, it might be about 50, maybe the 60 percent fat. Kind of like good quality ice cream. That milk is so fatty and that calf will drink maybe 50 gallons over the day, maybe even close to 100. That milk will get so fatty, the calf will gain about 4 to 5 pounds an hour. You heard me right, I didn't say that wrong. What would happen to us if we ate it? Yeah, if you do the math, that's close to 100 pounds a day. There is a certain part of that calf's life, it will gain that much weight, especially when mom comes back here and starts eating again. The calf will keep it gained like that happened today. While calf is gaining, mom's losing. She'll probably lose about an eighth of an inch off her, they don't really have a waist, but off her waistline. Yeah. So she'll shrink a little too while that calf is growing. So that's why it's so important for a whale to eat a lot here. Males, they're eating a lot because when they go down south, they beat the snout out of each other. They go through what we call competitive behavior. All the guys want to get next to a girl, right? Everyone has the same idea. So they go through competitive behavior, they erase each other, they'll swing their massive fluke at each other, take their heads and bash each other. They'll do that for months. Trying to get to that girl on their choice. Sometimes dozens, even up to about 40 of them will just beat the heck out of each other. They'll get so involved in this competitive behavior, that female might take off and be out of the range. I guess there's a build up there. Oh boy. They don't have any hands, I guess they can't masturbate. Oh, it's like the elephant. Like the elephant. Yeah. That's how well compete. There you go. Now let's get into some real cosmic bubble gum. Astronomers discovered a stellar black hole in our Milky Way. Well, I guess they must have had some night goggles on or something. They're fundamentally two different kinds of black holes. Ones that you find in the center of galaxies, which are supermassive black holes. And then there's stellar black holes that you could be found throughout the galaxy. They're relatively small. It's only 33 times that of the sun. It's called Gaia BH3. Now it's discovered by chance by the European Space Agency's Gaia mission. It's only 2,000 light years away from us. Which is nothing like the width of galaxies 100,000 light years. So 2,000 light years is a neighbor. Our backyard. The Santee come here. And it would be easy to get there. They spotted it because it was a wobbling motion on its companion star that was orbiting it. Now that's interesting too, is that most of the stars in the galaxy are binary, whether there's two or more stars. Just like people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Some have more, some have less. Ours is a lunar. Our sun, I thought that there's the theories that we have an invisible partner that's out there in our galaxy is a big gravity well. Oh, actually they think it's another planet, right? It's not our sun's binary. Yeah, right. It's another planet pulling some gravity out in the universe. There's enough water. Right, right. There's enough wobbliness in the universe to suggest that a planet X might be real. Okay. So most stars are binaries. And as far as we know, our sun is a single. Yeah. As far as we know. As far as it made it with a planet somewhere, but that's invisible. Or maybe it made it with a black hole that's invisible. Oh, yeah. You think what happens when a black hole and a star go into a bar? You think about it. Right. Anyway, gravity, a much debated theory. Yes. Well, BH3 is a dormant black hole. And what they mean by that is it's too far away from its companion star to strip it of its matter. Oh, I see. So they're like living apart. Yeah. And it doesn't have any. Not sharing space. And that makes it hard to detect because it's not emitting any X rays. Just how we call it. Black holes are like that. We often know. A lot of them they put out X rays. We can find them. Oh, uh huh. But this one's not emitting any X rays. So it's called the dormant black hole. Mm hmm. Okay. It's just deep meditation. Huh? This black hole is just engrossed in its own thoughts. And anyway, that's from Gaia and Gaia has been operating about one and a half million kilometers from Earth for the last 10 years and gave us this beautiful 3D map of the positions and motions of more than 1.8 billion stars out there. Mm hmm. How come the picture is round? Did they explain that? I've never seen a round picture of the Milky Way before. It's kind of like a 360 picture or wide panorama of the galaxy. Oh, so they imagined it from the center or something? Yeah. You're looking at the center of the galaxy in the middle. Yeah. I see. Where it's really bright. And that's where the large black hole in the center of our galaxy lives. Sagittarius? Sagittarius A. A. Okay. Do you know what are the small black holes in some way communicate or connect with the center black hole forming a black hole network of some sort? Yeah. Maybe that's why our black hole isn't emitting any X rays. It's too busy on the phone with the other black holes through some invisible channel we don't know about. Yeah. Why doesn't it put out X rays? It's talking about us though. Just not to us. Yeah. There's a huge story that has to do with the existence of life itself. How about two life forms have merged in a once in a billion year evolutionary event? Oh really? Yeah. Or are they dating? Yeah. And the last time this happened this level of connectivity happened earth got plants. Oh. Oh yeah. Well this picture if it's to be believed it kind of looks like a sperm just made it with an egg. They all have that kind of similarity to them. And it looks like it has two little organelles in the middle that are mirrors of each other. Maybe those are the testes or something. Who knows? Well the phenomena is called primary endosymbiosis. Wow. What a sexy name. Primary endosymbiosis. And it occurs in one tiny little microbial organism in gulfs another. Oh. Not eat in gulfs. In gulfs. Yeah. That sounds like the way they describe the egg in the sperm. Yeah. But the difference is is that it engulfs another life form and that life form becomes like an organ for it. Oh. Oh, more like what happened to the mitochondria then. Yes. Exactly. It's exactly what happened in our cells we have these things called mitochondria that generate energy. But they are alien life forms in themselves and they have their own DNA inside themselves the mitochondria. Yeah. Might have just because they were engulfed doesn't mean that they're the aliens. Maybe they both were local. Maybe they both came from earth. Maybe. The mitochondrial DNA though is maintained in the female. It's a form of DNA evolution that's tracked through the females I believe. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So you can track relatives with mitochondrial DNA with women. I don't know a lot about it but I've often wondered about why that is why don't men have that in their DNA. Or maybe it just tracks the female mitochondria. Well, we'll just have to talk to some mitochondrial experts or our own cells and get back to you on that. Yeah. Good question. But meanwhile, what about this new engulfing species of life? In this four billion odd epoch we call life, primary endo symbiosis is thought to have only happened twice before. Oh. At each time was a massive breakthrough for evolution. The first was 2.2 billion years ago when an arcaeus swallowed a bacterium and that's what Bobby was talking about. The mitochondria were formed. They're like little batteries for the cell. You've got a thousand of them in each cell. So we're saying that the arcambs are the dominant species and the bacteria were the aliens. They swallowed a bacterium. They swallowed. Okay. Got it. So that created basically all complex life forms after that to evolve. More house of the cell to this day. It turns life into an oxygen breathing organism, right? Power house. Yes, it used energy. A2P. Creatic seed. Crib cycle. Energy cycle. Okay. The second time it happened was 1.6 billion years ago when some of those more advanced cells that are revolving absorb the cyanobacteria that could harvest energy from sunlight. Oh, I see. So mitochondria were before photosynthesis, huh? That's right. That's interesting. And then the photosynthesis happened. The absorb the cyanobacteria became organelles called chloroplasts. They gave it an ability to harvest sunlight for energy. That's fascinating because I would have thought that the ability to harvest sunlight was a precondition of life, but it sounds like it was a late-comer. Mitochondria came first, according to newatlas.com. Fascinating. Yeah. So these chloroplasts gave these creatures the ability to harvest sunlight and also gave them their green color and those became the plants. And now that it's happening again, a species of algae was found. I don't even dare try to pronounce it, but I suppose I could. You may as well give it a terrible attempt. Barata niktou. No. Barata sphere. No, that's how you reactivate the guardians. The beat, the guardians. Barata sphere. Big lowy. So what do you think? Bobby, you want to say it? Say it, Bobby. I mean, you can do it. Barata das furra big lowy. Yeah. Definitely. That's what it is. That's what it is. I think you guys are bringing it to life. I think this was a plan to invoke new life. Okay, bring it home. I say it on the radio. Bring it home, Mrs. Future. Why don't you say it? You want me to try to? Yeah. Oh, my. Let's see. Barata niktou. Blah. Now, the barata spara. Dose, say big doe. Forget it. B-I-G-E-L-O-W-I-I. And there's a link on the Dr. Future Show webpage, links page. Does this mean that bacteria lived on the earth four billion years ago and then the plants came relatively early afterwards? Well, there was a few billion years separating them. Yeah, the bacteria were there how long ago? The mitochondrial deal came first. Yeah, how old was mitochondria? Cyanobacteria. When did mitochondria get engulfed? 2.2 billion years ago. Right. And then plants happened 1.6 billion years ago. Wow. So it's kind of every billion years or so we get a new one. Yeah, maybe. Maybe some cosmic deal maker comes and stops by earth every billion years or so and sees it. Okay. So it's better on this planet. Those plants are thriving. Let's try anyone. We've got plants. We've got animals. What's next? Plantable. Walking plants. We just have new plantables. Stationary humans. Plantables. I like it. Men. There were stationary humans in the second Wizard of Oz. I mean, you read the first one, but the second one by Frank Baum has a place where if you're human and you step into this field, you start growing roots. Oh. Yeah. Before long you're a plant. Right. You become one of those tree beings. So officially, this big aloe was found to have engulfed the cyanobacterium that lets them do something that algae plants in general can't normally do. And what's that you might ask? Well, it's fixing nitrogen straight from the air and combining it with other elements to create more useful compounds. Okay. You're sucking energy out of the air. You're taking things straight out of the air. Nitrogen, for example, is mostly a nitrogen atmosphere. Yeah. Aren't we like 60% nitrogen? Isn't that our atmosphere? It's more than that. More than that. Because I thought oxygen was 30, maybe oxygen was 20. Maybe 99% or something. Yeah, and oxygen is 21, 22. Nitrogen is a key element and there's a lot of it in the atmosphere. So it makes sense that nature sooner or later would figure out how to use nitrogen better. There's so much of it just floating around out there. We don't use it for our process. We're using the oxygen. So this means that we're going to have a new kind of breathing animal. Yeah, an antigen that takes energy from nitrogen. Yeah. Huh. All right. It hooked up algae. It's an algae that can do something new with nitrogen. Yeah. These two have gotten very intimate. It's got the scientists not concerned, but looking at it. Fascinating, I'd say. Fascinating with this thing. What is this going on? We only see this once every 1.2 billion years. The algae and the bacteria. Evolution at its finest. The algae was the one that made the deal. It's the one that made the deal. The growth seems to be controlled by the exchange of nutrients and that creates a linked metabolism. And that's what happens with the organelles. When the mitochondria got absorbed into the cell, it became the energy source. The scientists are saying this is the same thing here. If you look at mitochondria and the chloroplasts, they scale with the cell. So now they're using X-rays to look at the interior of these living algae cells. And they're looking at how their replication and cell division is synchronized between the host and the symbiote and looking at more evidence of primary endosymbiosis at work. Wow. Yeah. Something's happening here. Yeah. A new kind of life form. Bacteria and algae are making a deal, folks. Very interesting. And what does that have to do with us? I don't know. We're bound to find out. Stay tuned. We'll review this again in another 1.2 billion years and let you know how it all works out. Well, if it moves fast, I mean plants move pretty fast. Animals move pretty fast in terms of evolving into other species really quickly. So you think that we can check back in in less than 1.2 billion years? Yeah, especially if they team up with the AIs. You know, we're in trouble. I don't know. Maybe all of this speeding up is just illusion. Maybe it's just us catching on to something that's been happening all along. Maybe our species just learned to read the genetic code and started messing around with it. So we think everything's happening faster, but really we're just noticing. Well, we're already starting to think of how it could be taken to an advantage too. It's our species for you. One possible benefit is that it could give us a new way of nitrogen fixing capabilities into plants so they grow better crops. You wouldn't have to put nitrogen in the soil. They'd just be pulling it out of the air. I think Fritz Haber and Carl Bosch, they got in a time travel machine and they went back 1.4 billion years ago. Yeah. Put nitrogen into the ins. Those are the scientists who discovered this engulfment. They discovered nitrogen. Fertilizer. Back in 1918. Oh, got it. It's the Haber Bosch process. Yeah. So what do we use that for today, Bobby? We make bombs out of it now. Not fertilizer. Yeah, we use the fertilizer to make bombs. Truly, that's what happened. Well, not all of us. Some of us. Yes, some of it. But it did create this green revolution. Farming changed in 1918 when they were able to fix nitrogen out of the air. Oh, interesting. Okay. So now we've got a new life form that can do it for us. Yeah. Okay. Just never what you think. Yeah. There's something happening here. What it is, it ain't exactly there. Of course, you might have also heard about that Harvard project to bring back the woolly mammoth. I think they had it on coast last night. Oh, you hear that. Yeah, it's coming back. There's a George Church over at Harvard Medical School. He's one of the promulgators of this thing. And he's apparently gotten enough money to move this whole thing forward. Back in 2011, he had a meeting with Peter Teal and got an initial $100,000 to help him start off the process. Are they just insominating an elephant that's been gene engineered into a mammoth? Are they doing something like that? Something like that. The way I think of Frank Church's approach is somewhat comparable to understanding the undo button on your keyboard. The delete button. Who's the leap of? Could you explain a little more detail? You know, Frank was a guy that really was clear on how dinosaurs evolved into birds. There's a whole number of mutations that happened through time to create T-Rex becoming a goldfish. It takes a lot of changes to make the transition. Sure. Shrinking over time. Yeah. And part of the process of reversing that, going, you know, taking a modern creature like a goldfish and moving it back in time to what it was in the past. Like taking an elephant and turning out a woolly mammoth? Yeah, essentially going into the DNA and undoing the mutations. Oh, so that's the new angle, huh? Yeah, instead of trying to find some old DNA and resurrect it like they did in Jurassic Park. It's not necessary. So been there done that. Well, no, we haven't really. It might work, but it might not be viable. But this way is you're working with living DNA that you're just undoing mutational steps in. So he's perfected that whole way of thinking about creating creatures from the past by undoing the code of existing creatures. The undo function of B and A first I've heard. Yeah, that's my understanding of it. What is worth the apartment? Peter Teal gave him some initial money to start developing that process. And woolly mammoths, why did they choose to do that? Why? It's more fun than a dodo. Well, I imagine they've got some pretty useful DNA that's from the fossilized frozen woolly mammoth that they discovered not that long ago, right? So they've probably got some pretty good samples to work with. They do. And also the lab is working with an endangered species with the... Oh, so the people who are funding them to do it are interested in being able to do this for endangered species? Well, it's one of the things. The Asian elephant has been facing numerous threats to its population numbers. It's getting poached and diseased. These experiments will allow us to make sure that it doesn't go extinct. Or if it does, we've got a backup. Yeah. And they're also thinking forward too. They're looking at how to create the elephant so that it can more survive the changes that humanity's making to the world. The realities of poaching, the realities of human conflict. These poor animals don't know when those monkeys are fighting each other, or they sometimes get away. They might be collateral damage. They are. And also when farmers don't like them, although I do hear of people coming up with very creative solutions to better communicate with them so that they're not harmed by even the big... That's another big area of thought right now in academics is animal communications, interspecies contact. A lot of research is going into that now. It's fascinating. I have a couple of links to this week's stories as well on our DRFuturShow.com/linkspage. Oh, well, we should do that, but we have to go to a break first. Yeah, but to complete this thought on church, his group is continuing. They're going to be working on a fast track towards creating a mammoth, and they're looking at a de-extinction process by 2030, I believe, by a certain time. They're not calling it birth anymore. They're calling it de-extinction. De-extinction, yeah. It says an undue thing. De-extinct to this creature. I see. We'll finish undoing the DNA for the woolly mammoth. Are we Divo? Divo. I guess they could be the name of a company if we wanted to. Are you doing lyrics from a song? Yeah. We are Divo. D-E-V. Yeah. So we are Divo. We are D-evolving. Okay. Yeah. On that note, let's... Well, maybe that's not such a good intro to the positive things we have to say about our sponsors and people who love Santa Cruz voice. Oh, as long as we can undo the undo, I think we'll be good. [chuckles] [buzzer] [buzzer] [buzzer] The Pajaro Valley Chamber of Commerce and Agriculture's Business Expo and Job Fair is Thursday, April 25th, from 4 until 7 at the Santa Cruz County Fairgrounds. This is an event full of exciting activities for all. Tastes samples from fabulous restaurants, wind prizes, and get to know local businesses. Thursday, April 25th, from 4 until 7 at the Santa Cruz County Fairgrounds. Admission is free and everyone is welcome. The votes are in. Jeff Ben here from Back9 Grill & Bar at the Easy Off past Tampa exit. We are so proud of our food and our service and your votes. Back9 has been voted Santa Cruz County's best burger and best happy hour in the good times. You've heard me talking about our house ground burgers. It's time for you to come and try one so you can taste the juicy difference. And what makes our happy hour the best? You have to come and experience it yourself. See you at the nine. Cannabis is one of nature's most beneficial plants. So at Treehouse, we use it to build community. Hello, I'm Jenna from Treehouse Dispensary in SoCal. In addition to the finest cannabis products, Treehouse dispenses information to those who want to know how to use cannabis for maximum benefit. Though we aren't medical professionals, we do know how cannabis science can help you. Listen to Carly. Thanks Jenna. For those who would like a cannabis flower that picks you up, stimulates your creativity and makes you feel happy. Treehouse suggests the sativa varietal banjo from the local growers at Coastal Sun. Banjo will pick up your day right away. To learn how to use cannabis for the best effect, just ask us, your friends and neighbors at Treehouse Dispensary, 3651 SoCal Drive in SoCal. You must be 21, but no appointment is necessary and the information is free. And for those who already know what they want, Treehouse has an online ordering option at ourtreehouse.io. And drive through pickup. We look forward to welcoming you to our Treehouse community. And we're back. Hi everybody. To enjoy that little break. Pretty cool stuff with the woolly mammoth and all, huh? The woolly mammoth and the nitrogen fixing creatures that are coming. Right. The future will be different than the past. How different? I was thinking during the break that can you imagine a superhero that takes the best of all worlds, the animal world, the plant world and this new nitrogen fixing creature world. What would he be able to do as a superpower? Mmm. It's scary. But keep in mind, if he's pulling nitrogen out of the air and he has the biochemical capabilities that exist in mammals and plants, he should be able to create magic with that nitrogen. Well, he could probably live on what is it, Titan? Does Titan have a nitrogen atmosphere? Wherever there's lots of nitrogen he could live. Maybe Mars. I don't know. I have to say. I think Mars has got a lot of CO2 in the atmosphere. I think we did a story on the, or we read together, a story on the fact that I think it was Titan. If we brought our own oxygen to Titan, it has oceans and it has seasons and it has a lot of issues that come with a nitrogen atmosphere. Yeah. We might even be able to withstand the gravity somehow. I don't know. Anyway, back to the powers of Nitro, man. Yes. He would be able to point his finger and make plants grow. Thank growing, he'd be able to make them really well. And he'd also be able to move his hands on a certain way and create explosions. Nitrogen is part of an explosive. Well, you need to have enough oxygen for that. So it wouldn't happen on Titan. Yes. Growing and explosions. Creation and destruction will be in his command. Uh oh. It's a powerful being. Powerful being. Yeah. What did you call it? A plannimal. This reminds me of the group Devo. Devo, that's right. You mentioned it. How were you thinking? How did your thought process go Devo there? If you ever watch this movie, it's called the Island of Dr. Merow. And Dr. Merow is on this island and he takes animals and he claims to de-evolutionize them and they actually become human likes. But they stand on the legs and they talk. But they have faces of this former animal that they, and eventually they revolt and they say, are we not human? Oh, yeah, we're not. And that's where the band Devo comes from, from de-evolutionized. And that's why the song is, are we not human? No, we are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. We are Devo. Well, thank you for that little historical look back. That's cool. Yes. God made man and man made the animals. And then the animals made us. There seem to be all these feedback loops going on. Wait a minute. That's recursive alloys. I know, I know. It's crazy. We made them, then they made us. Well, because there's no beginning. Creation is a constant real time process. It's always changing all the time, always evolving. Imagine that the Big Bang is happening all the time. I imagine that. I actually do subscribe to that belief. I think we're not that fair part. Time is a big long now. Yeah. Okay. And so creation is an ongoing process. Absolutely bubbling at the edge of time. Yeah. That's basically what I'm saying. Oh, okay. It's just realizing it sometimes. There is a very interesting group that I discovered this weekend through another article that I had read. I wasn't quite as excited about it, but it led me to this other direction as often things happen online. There was a group of experts, a prominent biologist and philosophers this last week, who announced a new consensus. They put out a little paper that says that there is a realistic possibility that insects octopuses, crustaceans, fish and other animals, experience consciousness, that they're awake in some way. Fascinating. I have to say that the image of a honeybee that they have used to illustrate this is absolutely beautiful. It's a macro close up that shows you the fuzziness on the face and the head and it makes this creature look like a very colorful, well designed alien. Yeah, we're pretty than most alien. So one of the things that they found that these creatures engaged in suggested they have some kind of a sentence was bees. The colonies of bees were given these small wooden little balls to play with and that's exactly what they did. They played with the wooden balls. They pushed them around and rotated them and had fun with them. There was no obvious connection to any of the things bees are normally busy doing, like collecting honey or water or survival stuff, mating. How did these scientists think to give them balls to play with? I don't know. I think what some scientists must have had a wild idea or saw them in a collection of styrofoam balls or something and they were playing with it, kind of not. All right. A tour by that anyway. So who knows? But anyway, they playful bees. These bees just hanging out in a hive or were they, I guess they must have been in a laboratory. It's probably was born. It was called the Bee Sensory and Behavioral Ecology Lab at Queen Mary University in London. That's where they first observed them. They were bumble bees. So this was part of a body of research that a group of scholars interested in animal minds were saying they got together and they have a new declaration. They were looking for behavior. That was why they gave them some balls. They were looking for behavior that suggests the animals are more than just robots on automatic, just doing their everyday things and not aware of anything else. They were looking at how consciousness is expressed across species. The great apes, for example, have conscious experience, even if it's different from our own. Sure. So in more recent years, the scientists have been more and more acknowledging that more and more animals that are different from us, including invertebrates and creatures that have far simpler nervous systems than humans, still have a consciousness. Well I remember you mentioning something about corianis glazi and the apes that like to hang out in hot tubs. Yeah. Yeah. That is a definite exploration of consciousness right there. I have always enjoyed that. Remember that scene Bobby? Well there are snow monkeys in northern Japan, in Hokkaido, and they love it in the cold while it's snowing in these hot tubs. And they look like old men sitting in hot tub. Yeah. That's what it looks like. Yeah. It's very, would be not hard to slip in there and hang out with them. That's right. Sure. Now that would be interspecies conviviality. Sure. I think you might say. Sure. Hot tub diplomacy. Right. Between species. Well I think that there's some reverence for our animal origins in say the Hindu god Hanuman trade. Hanuman. He's supposed to be like the link between animal and the divine. The divine monkey and the human. Yeah. Kind of like us. But more on these consciousness among animals. So there was a group of people who got together to talk about whether we can allow ourselves to believe that animals have consciousness or not. Well to accept the empirical evidence that now exists that suggests that it's a realistic possibility. Scientists are very careful on their wording you know. Well they don't want to say it. Scientists who are talking about consciousness have already deviated from the certainty that most scientists like to ascribe to. Yes. Because consciousness itself is not defined. It's fuzzy. Well what's interesting is that it's a combination of philosophers as well as biologists and psychologists and neuroscientists. Okay. Well it doesn't sound like any physicist came to the party. I don't know. There might have been. Just the fuzzy scientist. Well people who like to think about things that are outside of the concrete understanding of the world which is probably most things. Like animal consciousness. Like animal consciousness. Like our own. So they're trying to come up with some terms to explain it. There's a new kind of basic consciousness known as phenomenal consciousness. Phenomenal. So we understand phenomena. So what does it mean to have phenomenal consciousness? It's something to be that creature. Being a tiger. Being a bee. So self-reference. We think it's so great to be human. That's phenomenal consciousness. What is it like to be a human? Philosopher Thomas Nagel back in 1974 had a seminal paper on this topic called "What is it like to be a bat?" I guess he just saw the new Batman. I don't know. He probably just saw the movie "The Fly." That kind of mind exercise fundamentally and organism has a conscious mental state if there's something into what it's like to be that organism. Well I suppose all of the speculation lately about whether computers are conscious or AIs are conscious has caused people to focus the lens a little on our humans conscious and our animals conscious. Everybody wants to get into the act. Yeah, there's a big debate among the planetary intelligence about whether or not humans are conscious. Studying that. I have my questions about a few that I have. Do I have the ability to feel pain or pleasure? What about hunger? Was that what consciousness is defined as? Those are the ideas of phenomenal consciousness. Oh, okay. I have a body, the I am kind of conscious. You can experience pain, pleasure, hunger, but not necessarily more complex states such as self-awareness. Oh, okay. I thought that was the same thing. Have you ever watched a dog while it's sleeping and it is for sure there are certain times where it is dreaming. Oh yeah. It's your one. It's your own dream. I think all animals dream. And if they dream, that to me means that they're conscious of something even while they're sleeping. Yeah. So that looks to me like a form of consciousness, another animal. And they have altered states of consciousness like dreaming. That's real for them. I think so. What we're seeing now is a time when we're starting to recognize animal consciousness. They all got together and they had this big talk about it at Princeton last October. And you know what are the interesting elements that are pulling them all together right now? The strange attractor? AI. Oh, hey, I guessed. I jumped ahead. Yeah. Of course, because people are asking how much shall we trust the AI? Shall we allow ourselves to murder the AI by turning them off even after we don't understand how to do that when they're smarter than us? One of the exciting fields is animal communication, translating what they're saying into something that the Holy Grail would be into English. Oh, that's a much better way to look at AI, helping us to understand the animals. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. I think AI is going to be the Rosetta Stone. That's going to allow transpecies communication. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm there with you on that. And it will put humans in charge of the switchboard. Well, at least the one that we invent, for all we know, there are all kinds of animal communications switchboards that we just don't even realize. Yeah, that's already in existence. That's true. The animals are already talking to each other quite extensively. I am sure. I am sure. We're just crazy monkeys adding another layer of complexity to the mix. Right. But when you think about it, the experiments that have been done, say with the whales and the dolphins, even with the apes and even with the dogs, those have been attempts to get animals to understand us and our language. Like we're projecting that they're not intelligent because they can't speak our language. But what the AIs are going to let us do is find new ways to actually listen to their language and try to understand how what they're saying is the communication they have with each other and what they're paying attention to the way that our language does that for us. And we'll have a picture that we haven't had before of how animal languages are expressing their worldview. Yeah. Yeah. They suggested a video on YouTube to help understand some of this a little bit better called signals for survival. Oh, yeah. Oh, let's watch it. It's all about, interestingly enough, seagulls. Communication begins with a signal. [Squeaking] Dakota species signals and you open a window on their world. Okay. Okay. And seagulls have a very complex, what could be construed as a language that involves not just vocalizations, but dances, movements, and head motions. And when you try to understand a language of another species, it's not necessarily like us where it could be just audio. It could be like bees like to dance also. There's a lot of dancing in the universe. Well, speaking of seagulls reminds me of something I saw next this morning that was kind of funny. There was a cartoon of a seagull that was labeled Elon Musk, I believe. And this seagull was extending its leg out past the edge of the shore towards the water as if it was crossing a line. And it said the leg was instructed to don't cross the line. And the thing was a response to the governments that are trying to censor X in various countries because they want to control the narrative. So just for what it's worth, seagull language, memes, these things are kind of interesting. Well, would you tell the seagull, get away from my food? I don't think you could tell the seagull anything until you can speak seagull. Until then you got to listen. I kind of get an idea of what they want from you. Usually they size you up, they look at you. Yeah, when they poop on you, you get a clue. No, nobody. I'll be not accidental. So they know how to take things from you? Oh, steal things. Food like you put your sandwich down and you're talking to your friend. Oh, now see, we used to take stale bread and break it up into breadcrumbs and feed it to them and whole seagulls flock, flock of seagulls because they're birds. Yeah, yeah. Right. They used to gather around those breadcrumbs. So at least that we know the common language of offering food. We do. We do. We do. We do. Now, can imagine if you could tell them that they could keep away from you like 10 feet or so, you'll put a little pile over there for them and make a deal with them so that they just eat that pile and leave you alone and have them so that they agree to that. Yeah, well, I think we actually have an interactive communication with them. We do. Do that by default, right? Well, we try to, but a lot of people don't know how to do that very well with them. Well, they keep their distance for sure. We don't have to negotiate that. Well, they're afraid to go closer. Well, bear with me on this. Just create a deal. I'm just, that was just an example. Create a better deal than what I thought of. A win-win. Okay. All right. And maybe even more. They can bring you stuff. You bring me that shiny object you collected and I'll give you a nice big piece of bread. You're going to have to make a friendship with the bird for a long time. Okay. You know what I mean? Make a deal with the bird. Yeah. Artificial intelligence, conscious machines and animals and the ethics that are involved with this issue as well. Oh, and that is so much more to be said. This has been... I barely touched that topic. Yeah. Yeah. These articles are well worth the time and... I'm particularly enamored with the work of Kristen Andrews at York University in Toronto. And so, Margaret. Nice. Okay. Okay. Welcome back to the show. Yeah. I've just been talking about artificial intelligence, conscious machines and animals. And AI ethics associated with learning how to communicate better with the animals. Big issue at this Princeton Conference of some scientists around the world that are into the mind of animals. Yeah. It's a fascinating subject. We have a link to that in our links page. Yeah. And I agree with you that the woman that you mentioned has a fascinating amount of insights about the human being. That you mentioned has a fascinating amount of insights about what is going on in animal research. And she is a philosopher and an ethicist. Yes. Could you repeat her name, Kristen? Kristen Andrews. Andrews. Yeah. Yeah. Let me play a sample every time. All right. When I got into this field, people were just talking mostly about chimpanzees. They saw some things about dolphins, but it was a really narrow focus. And the focus of species have just continued to increase. And each time it increases, there are big debates. There are big debates about fish, pain and sentience, then big debates about octopuses and crabs and now big debates about insects and plants. But these debates seem to kind of settle down with a growing acceptance that these other species are, cognitive creatures, conscious experience and proper subjects for investigation. So I think the microbiome is our next step in this. She gives an hour and a half long piece, or actually 40 minutes on the first one that's interesting as part of the event recording at the bottom of the Princeton page. So you've got a link to this page. Yeah. I have a rest of the D.A. One of the future show. Artificial intelligence, consciousness, machines and animals, broadening AI ethics. One of the interesting things you never think about, for example, while she gets into teaching of birds and teaching of apes and dogs and cats. But the main story that I wanted to share with you has to do with the apes. There was a research where they were teaching apes sign language, American sign language. And it was very successful. Apes seemed to really excel with it. One particular young ape was brought up with American sign language. It signed very well and new hundreds of signs. But sadly, the program lost its funding and the little ape had to go into an academic zoo where lab animals go after there's no more use for them in the lab. This sounds like the beginning of the Planet of the Apes movie. I guess this could inspire Planet of the Apes movie because this poor guy was suddenly surrounded by a lot of creatures that did not know sign language, the humans or animals, none of them knew sign language. And it was a big part of his communication. And suddenly he was alone, literally surrounded by others, even of his own kind. So here's where us humans taught them a language that they incorporated. He incorporated into his life and then he was placed on an environment where it no longer worked. It was no longer valued. No longer valued. Just like his animal life was no longer valued. Right. So one of the scientists that had taught him sign language came to visit the zoo. As soon as he recognized each other, the monkey started signing like crazy. You know what he was signing? Get me out of here. Right. Take me home. I want to go. Take me with you now. But sadly he had no authority to do so. And the ape had to stay in the animal. They made a movie about this, didn't they? I don't know, but it touches me. And that's an issue where we start mucking around with animal intelligence. Did you say "monking" around with animal intelligence? No, I said "mucking." Very funny though. Okay. Yeah. The thing is, is that we already do monkey around with our animals all the time. Look at all the cats and dogs and domesticated creatures that are part of our ecosystem. Yeah. I don't know if we're monking around with them. I definitely know they're monking around with us. Yeah. Most people I know are actually servants to their cats and dogs. Well, I too, they have a pretty good life. They get to eat and sleep in nice places. And some of them get to go places. Yeah, it's a pretty good deal. Right. In her species communication, it's going to get pretty wild. Because not only can the AIs help us translate what they're saying into a language we understand, but it can go the other way around too. Mm-hmm. We can tell them what they understand. No, I mean... Well, we can get more information across back and forth to them. They even understand us and we would understand them much better. What would you do with such a capability if you could speak to the animals? You know, would you just tell them to go away? Like if you saw a skunk, but you just tell it to leave? Or what if you saw a squirrel that came onto your deck? Would you want to say something to it? It's like making friends with people. It's very individual. Mm-hmm. You might have a connection with others not. Yeah. It's like strangers. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, would you tell the gophers? Gophers are very cute. And because of my desire to be kind to animals, I've gotten over the prejudice that most people have who want to cultivate gardens on their land where I see the gophers as neighbors. And I look to the way that they have survived over the years because they're plumbers in the land. They create waterways and they create underground aeration and things that are very helpful to local ecosystems. When humans replace it so that they can have their sprinkler systems, they're actually creating a lot more work for themselves. So our inability to communicate with them except through terrorizing them and making them afraid of us and killing them is actually a lesser form of understanding them than we are capable of. Yeah. Yeah. It's way below what's possible. We have a contract with them where we would plant whatever they like to eat, like carrots or something in a certain patch. You can see all the carrots if you just eat there instead of in our garden. Yeah. Make a deal. Let's make a deal. Since winter deals limited to species, I ask you. Right. Well, I think people do feel like that's a good idea. But then since the animals don't recognize that it's a contract and that they're supposed to keep their end of it, they just eat all the food and get healthy and have big, big or big. Well, you're assuming they need more later. You're assuming they can't learn. I'm not assuming anything. I'm just talking about. The whole nature of evolution is learning. What people have already experienced directly, we need to up our game in terms of communicating with them. I think it has more to do with having boundaries that make it advantageous for them to cultivate without violating the space. And I think it requires a certain kind of intelligence that we have that they don't have. But I do think we could come up with options that are smarter than killing them. Give them a job to do. I think that's what regenerative farming is the ideal conversation to have. How do we create living systems that all the life in them thrive? Remember Louis up in Red Rock Road in Topanga Canyon? Sure. Louis Marvin. If you go to the end of Red Rock, there was a whole piece of property up there with expansive views of LA and Louis' little outpost. Menagerie. Menagerie. And he had animals from around the world, from llamas to chickens to an emo. All living together. All hanging out. Yeah, he collected exotic animals, big ones, and he let them freely over his, I don't know, 100 acres on top of Topanga. Yeah. Phenomenal way in which they all got along. It kind of goes against what you think about predator-crying relationships. You got to learn about the individual relationships. For instance, there was a power struggle in leadership between the camel and the llama at first, and the camel would always spit at the llama and the llama would always spit at the camel. And I think eventually they kind of became friends. They worked it out. I don't really remember too many of the stories. We just visited there a couple of times. As a species, we've played around a lot with that already. A lot of us love animals and have that connection and feel that's the evolutionary force that drives the relationship forward. That can be true for other animals that are not domestic, and we can love and respect what they are. And at the same time, help evolve our communications with them. For starters. Yeah. It's very controversial area. Animal communications. Animal communications. But I think it's kind of the key to our next step in evolution. There's a massive amount of intelligence on the planet that isn't ours. And we don't have direct -- well, we do have direct -- but we don't know we have direct access to it. This massive biological grid of intelligence that we're immersed in, the other animals, I think, are just connected. Often they don't even question it. They're on this massive biological network, and we're not. It's very often, unless we take the time to connect with nature a little bit. And then that's when we plug in. Well, it's probably the limitations of our abilities to be creative. That we can imagine things outside of our survival. And we can engage in behaviors that are coming from no place other than the universe inside our brains to the degree that we can create something from that understanding. It's very different than what animals are experiencing. It is. Now we're thinking, well, what would we tell them if we could give them information that would make their lives better? The scientists at this conference said there was conservation that we could have, quote, "fitness enhancing signals that may have been lost in some populations can be reintroduced." What is a fitness enhancing signal? Something that enables their survival so that they live better. Oh, so like the birds that are flying into the solar collectors in the desert in Mojave could be told how to avoid it? Yeah, or the blades of giant propellers of -- A plane. Right. They'd be told that a plane is coming so they don't have to fly into the propeller. Or wind farms or wind farms. Or wind farms, right? Yeah. Okay, so where we could be animal languages to warn them about our inventions. Right. That's why the things decide to start. I approve. How about -- I remember having the conversation when we first learned that whales were beaching themselves around Hawaii and that the military was conducting these horrible sonic experiments where they were basically deafening the whales. Yeah, it wasn't part of the protocols to recognize they were doing that. Yeah, soldiers are just out there thinking, "Hey, what can we blow up?" And they're killing whales probably on an adventure. And that is another issue. But just out of carelessness. That is still not so much from the military, but from cargo ships coming in and out of the bay, for example. Now, wouldn't it be nice to be able to give instructions to the whales and other species to move away from being hit by these boats? Well, Captain Ahab. When you try and tell a whale what to do, he might have an attitude about it. I mean, he's way bigger than you. Well, I think there are smart whales and there are dumb whales and the smart ones would listen and live and continue that strategy. I see. Yeah, I do think that it's like animals that cross the highway, they don't look which way they're going, they're going to die. And that's part of the -- Do you think the smart animals don't cross the highway when a car is coming in? I think they know that birds don't hit our cars. Of course, the smart squirrels are the ones that don't play the beat the car game. Unless the really smart ones that run right in front of your car just as you draw them back, just so that they can show out. They do. They do. They do. They do as they dare. They're showing off. How fast they are. I know. I know. I wonder who they're trying to impress. Other ones, of course, mating opportunities. And so, instructions can be given to move away from harm or towards good. All right. If we could speak animal, you tell them how to save them. Themselves from us. You tell the whales that there's a nice bunch of anchovies over there. Right. Just a little north of you. A hundred miles. Sure. It's the old carrot and stick thing, huh? Well, it depends on what kind of deer you make with them. If you want to get killed on the other side over there, you'll find all the anchovies you can eat. Yeah. You know, and a lot of people will be screaming, "Leave them alone. Just let them be." Well, I'm sure the people defending the anchovies would be saying that in that case. Every species probably has its own environmental group defending its rights to not be harmed by other groups. Oh, yeah. Everyone has their idea of what they think would be good for them, for sure. Another thing is that it would allow us to identify different animal cultures and map social structures more easily. Okay, wait. We're talking about animal communication. We brought up the idea of how you can identify different animal cultures and map social structures more easily. You know who's in charge of different squirrel colonies. You want to change in your relationship with them on your property. You talk to the big cheese. Know how to create a deal so that he's tribal. I did have a long conversation with the squirrel one year. Yeah, I think I remember that. Because I had this bathrobe that made me look like I was a giant squirrel. And this squirrel was on a tree and I'd never seen a squirrel on our property before, but it was the first year that our nut trees had started growing nuts. So I guess we suddenly became interesting to them. I have no idea what we were saying, but we did talk to each other for quite a while. I did the monkey thing of just trying to imitate the squirrel. And the squirrel did the squirrel thing and tried to tell me what it was wanting me to understand. Well, I'll tell you, the baby's born with translators right from the get-go. They'll not be afraid to use them. Okay. So we have to learn some new skills or we have to relearn some old forgotten skills about how we can communicate with animals. I think so. Another good link if you're interested in this topic is the crunch labs. Oh, Mark Rober. Mark Rober. He created an obstacle course in his backyard or an intelligence obstacle course for squirrels. Yeah. He's a delightful designer. Yeah. That's right. He's a San Francisco and crunch labs. I think he's in the Sunnyvale. Yeah, Cupertino. And teaches kids to think like an engineer. Yeah. He makes these really every month, he makes these little boxes and inside there you create these experiments on the ground. That's right. That's right. You know what? I have to confess we just subscribed for the adult version of it that he's offering. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Every month he's getting a different crunch lab kit. So it's on one for adults. Our audience members who are not familiar with Mark Rober and his amazing squirrel obstacle course in Squirrel Olympics and crunch labs, his educational online business world, he is a engineer and a teacher of engineering for kids. And he has been creating a monthly subscription for kids to get kids that he teaches them different concepts in engineering, lets them tune into videos where he puts those kids together with them. So it's a very modern internet based educational tool. And it's a wonderful experience because Mark Rober has such a great sense of humor and such a great appreciation of animals. And I can't say enough crunch labs.com. We love him. He probably doesn't know we exist. But I would recommend everybody check them out, especially if you want to learn engineering and you want to learn it like a kid playing so that it really sinks in and you have fun with it. Yes. Just playing hack and think the keywords were part of the future of education in my humble opinion. Definitely. He's showing the way on many fronts. Yeah. Yeah. Because he makes it educational and fun and interactive. You know, where kids are engaged with it. Right. Yeah. It gives him an excuse to be a permanent kid, which I'm sure was the reason behind it. So Bob, have you played with one of the kids? No, but I do have plans to buy these kids for a six year old that I know that he has no exposure to a TV. And he's only allowed organic things are made of wood or things like that. And I thought these kids would be perfect for him to learn. I mean, you know, he's... He's going to have to watch videos in order to get help with them. He's going to have to be able to go online, but it's probably worth it. Yeah. But you have to see his squirrel maze that he was getting the squirrel Olympics. You will come up with Mark Robers various videos connected to setting up obstacle courses for squirrels. It's amazing. Yeah. They're much fun to watch. Yeah. Delightful. Let's just randomly plug into one of these things to hear his voice talking about how he's training squirrels in the backyard here. It was like the moment in Jurassic Park when they realized the velociraptors can open door handles. And once the door was open, it was clear this wasn't their first rodeo. They basically cleared this whole tube of bird seed by the end of the day. Mind you, this bird feeder was advertised as being squirrel proof. So I bought another squirrel proof bird feeder to replace it. It's got this outer cage suspended by some springs. And so if a bird comes and lands here, it doesn't weigh that much and it has access to the seeds. However, if a squirrel comes, they'll grab onto this cage. It's weight will force the springs down, thereby preventing access to the seeds. I have no idea how the squirrels could possibly outsmart this. Okay. There you go. So he goes on and he puts it in the seed and then he sees how the squirrels deal with it. And they usually figure it out. Yeah. They have the exact same bird feeder in our yard. And we had definitely a problem with squirrels. So you know what, how we saw that? It took about 10 years to figure this out. But there's something out there called what we do is we put some flower seeds in the bird feeder and we get all these beautiful birds come in and you know, it's great in the backyard. But the squirrels and just tear this thing apart if they could. They would try to eat it apart. So we found more sturdier ones that they couldn't bite through. But like he was describing, when the squirrels have weight and they grab onto the side of the cage and the cage slides down and it closes the door to the seed, right? Yeah. Well, they would always figure out something. The squirrels just give them about a week or so and they figured it out. They would jam it or something and then they would get the seed. Right. Yeah. He shows that quite well in his videos. The only thing that worked, we had a friend that had the same problem and they found something that you pour on the sunflower seeds and it's called flaming squirrel. And what it is on the label, you see the squirrel has this fireball coming out of his throat and it's because they put capsaicin on the seed and the birds, the birds can't taste the, it's not hot to the birds, but to the squirrel, it's like eating a jalapeno and spit it right out. Here you go. Only thing that worked. That's animal literacy right there. So you have to put it on every seed or what? You take a court full of seeds and then you just sprinkle a few drops. So it's very powerful. You get it on your hands, it starts to burn. Yeah. Wow. It's time for us to do a little break. I'm sorry to interrupt. Are you ready? Our crops sit on the crunch labs. Very cool thing to check out. All right. So we'll be back. Stay tuned everybody. Good. That dog just say hi there. Oh, yes. My name is Doug. I have no idea. This dog, I have just met you and I love you. My master made me his collar. He is a good and smart master and he made me this collar so that I may talk. Squirrel. The pharmacy used to love me. With monthly fee rx.com, I pay one small monthly fee for all of my meds. If you pay more than $20 a month, check out monthly fee rx.com. If your family spends more than $30 a month, check out monthly. Free rx.com. Thanks to monthly fee rx.com. I now have the extra money to go out and do fun things. Monthly fee rx.com. For ag and industrial real estate, call Chuck Allen. Chuck Allen is a lifelong resident of the Parral Valley, a friend of everybody and has closed so many real estate transactions. The Wall Street Journal and Callen Williams both list him as one of the nation's top producers. So for ag and industrial real estate, call the top realtor. Chuck Allen at Chuck Allen properties dot com. Chuck Allen properties dot com. Hello, I'm Carolyn. Twenty five years ago, my husband Rudy and I opened Charlie Hong Kong with the commitment to serve healthy food grown in healthy soil. Today, the healthy food we serve comes from the Sacred Land in Parral Valley where Dick Pejote and his lakeside organics grow the soil and the soil grows the healthy plant that we serve to you. When you eat at Charlie Hong Kong, you eat healthy food and it's delicious. Charlie Hong Kong Santa Cruz. When your business is on the move, you must find the right place for it to move. That's asked Matt Chilton, General Manager of JR Parish, the big question. What is the right place to move one's business? Location location location. Sometimes it's rent. Sometimes it's the fact that there aren't that many buildings available to suit you, but mostly it's location of your customers, location of the principals, location of your employees. Move it to the right place with the help of the power brokers at JR Parish in Santa Cruz. Okay, one final thought on the whole animal intelligence question before we come back. The rest of our stories today, there's a big point where we might allow the animals to have direct access to our AIs. You're going to do that, right? I know that you're going to do that. No, I'm a storyteller. I'm not going to actually do this, but I do think about these things. I'm thinking, should we trust them? Like if we gave- Well, trust is a two-way street, buddy. Well, like for example, if we gave the orcas the whales an opportunity to see where their other orcas were, they'd probably like that. But they probably also like to know where their food supply is. Oh, definitely. Right? And they would manipulate our technology to find out where the little baby grays are and which ones are straggling the most and send their team after them. The whales pass the test of the mirror test where they recognize themselves in the mirror. I don't know. I know dogs too. I know dogs too. Well, because I mean, how are they going to interpret- Maybe a bird does that, but I don't- I think that's very imaginative that a whale could read a map of other whale populations. I think that might be a little beyond their range. No, no, no. You'd create a map based on how they observe information. We'd have enough of an understanding to give them information in a way that made sense to them. Again, the mirror test is what the cognitive community uses to figure out what the cognitive mirror is in the class of animals that can recognize itself in media or whether, like when a bear sees a mirror in the woods, a bear tries to fight the reflection of itself. Some do, either. Would admire themselves. Yeah. And dogs tend to like to watch TV shows and cats about other cats and dogs. And it seems like they think that that's somewhat real, but it's like looking through a window. Yeah. And the dolphin will actually recognize that its own behavior is being mirrored. And so it actually has self-recognition in a mirror. And I don't know for whales whether they could- What difference would it make to you? Use a technology. What were they? Just the interface. The interface of trying to get them to understand abstract information. I think they might be more audio-centric. I tend to think more in terms of an automotive control panel. They're more where you use lasers to project images in the water in front of them. You're going to create holographic images. They can look at it. They're going to try and chomp on them and find out that they're just like- No. You could do that. But I was thinking more of a useful map, where the food is or where the other colonies are and how to communicate with them using a transceiver. Now, didn't Kristen Andrews say that the kind of AI enhanced animal communication that she understands is happening is basically playback of- Yeah, mostly. Well, you see their own- Scientists have been related to playback where they record animals' sounds and then play them back to them. But they might not be appropriate when they play them back. And that's one of the things they experiment with to try to find out what different things mean by playing them back and seeing how the animals react. Yeah, it was fascinating to hear her talk about the- in the historic study of animal communications, there were two dolphins that were trained and one of them was trained with gesture language and one of them was trained with playback language. And the one that was trained to respond to the playback would get pissed off every single time it heard like they had recorded some insults or something and would go and learned from the other dolphin, the gesture language and would only communicate in the gesture language because the playback language was pissing it off. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and it could be something stupid. Like the volume was too loud for the dolphins to like or that particular dolphin didn't like hearing humans. Yeah, like hearing humans or maybe the thing that was recorded with some insults that the dolphin wouldn't put up with the- Yeah, yeah, the level of communication is just not sophisticated enough at that point. It's an evolving thing to look at what the ethics are in terms of interacting with animals, especially wild ones. The rule of the land these days is to basically leave them alone until we know what we're doing, let the scientists figure this out. It's still early on in the interspecies communication research and they haven't got a lot of money from it. It was kind of stalled a little bit because of some shenanigans that John Lilly did back in the 70s where he actually dosed dolphins with acid to see how it would affect their communications and- I thought he worked with whales. Dolphins? He was a whale guy. Well, dolphins and whales. Sertation. Sertation. Yeah. Who was it? Ted Nelson who said that Ted Nelson worked with Lilly for a bit, didn't he? Yeah. And he said that some of those experiments going on were not very kind to the animals. He also was an anatomist. He'd contribute what mainstream academics like about him was that he did a lot of neuroanatomical studies of dolphin brains and stuff. Lilly? Yeah. And that's before we got into psychedelics and stuff. His controversial character definitely is recognized for creating change. He brought in the isolation chamber idea and the communication with the cetaceans as being a highly intelligent species that we ought to connect with. But his means of investigation were not well. Well, of course it was dealing with psychedelics which are still not understood in terms of communications and quality. You can see how he might have gone there. It's starting to unfold again after 50 years hiatus. The research is starting to get funded better. In inner species communication and the AIs are going to play a big role in it. So we don't need acid, we need AI. And we need animal communications. Yeah. I don't know if we did it on the show but I do remember, yeah, I think we did it on the show that there was a woman who was very engaged with chickens and was very, very up on chicken language and chicken behavioral dynamics. So we're going to need people who really know and understand and love the animals as well if we're going to make progress in this department. Right. To show the AIs what to pay attention to that's really valuable. Now one other point that Kristen Andrews made before we move on, she was ending with the point that if we have to choose between whether we allow rights for AIs versus rights for animals, that the argument that's being made by these ethicists is that the rights of the more vulnerable should be protected and that the animals are far more vulnerable than the AIs which at worst could be subject to a reboot and can be brought up again from nothing. So they're more like immortal machines versus very environmentally dependent creatures such as ourselves and such as animals. I thought that was one of the most fascinating points made in this conference about ethics and whether we understand that we have to be ethical in our treatment of all creatures, whether they are made of metal or gifted from the earth and that ethics requires that we commit ourselves to protecting the vulnerable. Yeah. But you can have a lot of variation too. That's the thing with our species, we're going to have vegans and vegetarians and carnivores and they all simultaneously must exist. And plantimals. Plantimals. And plants. Okay. And plant. Plantimals and anaplants. And plantimals. Yeah. The nitrogen fixing beings impairing our relationship with animal culture. That's right. We can't starve them because they get their food from the sun. Yes. We must not impair. We must repair. Right. That link there is artificial intelligence, conscious machines and animals. Okay. Broading our AI ethics. Right. I am a great tracker. My packs sent me on a special mission all by myself. Have you seen a bird? I want to find one and I've been on this set. I'm a great tracker. The Deep Space Optical Communications Experiment. Sending a laser beam? Yes. And right now most of our solar system communications with all our probes and other planets and such are over radio waves. Yeah. And this is a new network that NASA has been pioneering called the Deep Space Optical Communications Network. Which goes further sunlight or radio beams? And Psyche our spacecraft on the way to guess where? Psyche. Right. The Astro Belt. That's it. Yes. Yes indeed. For the first time it's transmitting engineering data to Earth. And right now it's 140 million miles away. The sun is 93 million. This is 140 million. All right. So an astronomical unit and then some. Yep. The laser sent some engineering data 140 million miles on light beam and it worked. It worked. All right. So optical communications of the future. Laser light. Higher data rates. Okay. Complex info, visuals. Talk about it. Sound. A network. That's quite a data network. Yeah. They can go that far. That's right. That's right. They downlinked about 10 minutes of duplicated spacecraft data, compared it with the data they already had. Just look for errors and it was really good. Really good. So it looks like Psyche mission has gone just a little further than Mars so far. One and a half times the distance between us and the sun. Right. Their data rate is up to 100 times faster than state of the art radio systems. Light moves faster than electromagnetics. It's your past optical communications expectations. Data rate of 267 megabits per second. Sounds like a lot. Yeah. 260. We're kind of used to that now. That's like Xfinity. That's like cable. Oh really? So it's up there with this cell phone. No, that's not cell phones. That's home internet. Okay. Home internet. All right. Yeah. Home internet. Yeah. Xfinity type speeds you get Comcast. Okay. But at least they're not sharing the data bandwidth. They get the whole thing. Right. And they're getting that on a laser beam coming from that distance away. So it's kind of fiber optics, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly Bob. Yeah. It's kind of like fiber optics only without the fiber. Without the fiber. Yeah. That's in space. And the laser has to align with the laser here in order for us to get the data. And you can imagine how accurate you have to be in order to connect with something 130 million miles away. Well, they obviously mastered keeping the satellite antennas pointing towards the earth a long time ago. Otherwise we wouldn't be still talking with Voyager. They figured out that. But the lasers hold that they're kind of antenna than radio antennas. Sure. A light antenna. A laser antenna. 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